In this episode of The Business Owner’s Journey, host Nick Berry speaks with Dana Farber, founder of Moonstone Marketing. Dana shares her journey from a CMO in the franchising industry to launching a mindful marketing agency. They dive deep into topics like authentic and empathetic marketing, understanding clients, and building trust through tailored strategies. Tune in to discover how Dana helps visionary entrepreneurs create impactful brands by focusing on consumer behavior and empathetic marketing.
Dana emphasizes the importance of understanding the client’s motivations and how empathetic marketing can lead to deeper client relationships. She explains how her approach, which she terms "mindful marketing," focuses on treating clients as individuals and not just numbers. This personalized strategy helps in building trust and ensuring that marketing efforts truly resonate with the target audience.
Dana’s experience in the franchising industry taught her the intricacies of dealing with various stakeholders. She shares how working in a challenging environment like franchising prepares one to handle any business scenario. Her ability to understand and connect with different business owners has been crucial in her success as a marketer.
Dana shares her personal story of launching Moonstone Marketing during the pandemic, despite the unexpected challenges she faced. She talks about how these challenges tested her resilience and taught her valuable lessons about control, adaptability, and the importance of focusing on what truly matters.
Dana discusses how authenticity in marketing builds trust. She stresses that understanding the deeper goals behind a client’s business is essential to creating marketing strategies that not only drive sales but also foster long-term relationships. Her clients often hand over full control of their messaging because they trust her deep understanding of their brand.
Dana highlights the importance of tailored marketing strategies for visionary entrepreneurs. She prefers working with businesses that are doing something unique in their field and aims to help them stand out by understanding and leveraging their distinct qualities. She mentioned Matt Goebel of Woven as an example.
Dana's approach involves diving deep into the motivations and values that drive a business, ensuring that marketing efforts align with the entrepreneur’s vision.
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Nick (00:00)
How did you get here with Moonstone?
Dana Farber (00:02)
Yeah, so I am kind of non -traditionally trained in marketing, but have worked in marketing for my entire career. So I started at a PR agency and eventually ran the social media department there. And then I transitioned over to one of our clients, which was a boutique fitness franchise based in the Midwest. from Chicago and I loved their mission. It was all about empowering women and I loved what they stood for. I had no experience with franchising, but I ended
jumping over there after my agency job and was then in the world of fitness, boutique fitness franchising specifically for nearly a decade, is, you know, just its own beast franchising. It's a really interesting industry. And it's kind of one of those things, very insular. If you know, you know, it's challenging. It comes with its own unique challenges, but I've kind of always said, if you can do franchising, you can do anything because it is probably any issue or
surprise that can happen in business, it's gonna happen in franchising. So there's not much that can shock and scare me now.
Nick (01:07)
I mean, any time you're going to try to control as much as you're trying to control the franchise system.
Dana Farber (01:10)
yeah.
the universe will just not, yeah, it's just like, it's kind of, it's a constant battle, but it's also very exciting. And it's, think it's just, it was a great, you know, battleground to kind of learn how to run a business and how to be on both sides of that equation, how to be a business owner, but also how to work with and speak to business owners of all different backgrounds, all different ages and demos. mean, you know, there's no one size fits all for franchising. So you really talk to all kinds of stakeholders and,
early age and young in my career I was able to have those conversations and just kind of gain that confidence in talking to people who are putting their you know life on the line for a business that I was selling them to buy so there's a lot of stake in the game for me there so I ended my career franchising at Exponential Fitness in California I was moved out there
I liked California, but I ended up not being a California girl. wanted to move back to the Midwest. And with all that confidence that I took with me from, you know, being in franchising for a while, I thought, you know, why not me? During the pandemic, everyone's kind of starting their own business. And I thought that looked great. I had the support of my family to try it and yeah, everybody's doing it. It's either this or make sourdough bread.
Nick (02:22)
Everybody's doing
Dana Farber (02:26)
chose to start a business as my pandemic project. so yeah, so kind of as they say, the rest is history. You know, it's been three years almost since I started Moonstone and I've never looked back once. I've never regretted the decision to start my own business.
Nick (02:42)
That's awesome. you, so what point did you start thinking about going into business for yourself? Or is that always something, did you kind of know that was going to be the end game?
Dana Farber (02:51)
I did and I didn't. It was somewhere in the back of my mind, but I always saw it as something collaborative that I would do with other people, that maybe we would start an agency together or I would start a business with someone. I really never...
thought of doing it myself. But again, we spent a ton of time alone time during the pandemic. And I realized, you know, through the echo chamber of my own apartment, was like, well, you've got some great ideas. So I became kind of my own hype woman. it's you know, it's owning a business by yourself. It is it can get really lonely. And I'd say that's probably like the trade
of not doing it with a partner is, you you don't have to run decisions by anyone, but also you don't really have the sounding board to bounce ideas off of. I don't have an executive board. It's my friends and family and the people that I trust with helping to advise my business. So no, it wasn't always something I thought of, but it is a very natural fit for my skillset because I'm hyper organized. I'm able to do multiple things at once and kind of focus.
and focus where I need to focus and understand the larger implications of certain activities. So I think that my holistic viewpoint of marketing has benefited me to be an agency owner uniquely. So I think I'm very lucky in that the thing I really enjoy doing is also something that I'm just pretty good at.
Nick (04:20)
Agreed. I think that you are too. So were you in California during the pandemic or had you already moved back?
Dana Farber (04:22)
thank you.
I was in California during the pandemic and I had just gotten there about six months before the pandemic. So in that, you know, totally new place, a totally new group of humans. I was away from my family for the first time in years. I stayed in the Midwest for school. I was always kind of pretty close to home. So that was a challenge in many ways, but also, you know, I think it just kind of forced me to grow up a little and forced me to stand on my own two feet with everything. So I was in California.
during the pandemic, basically the entire time I was there was COVID. And when I moved back, was 2021. So was just like people starting to get out of it. So yeah, I'm very grateful I was not in Chicago during the pandemic. I think being in the city would have been a little much for me, but yeah, it was kind of in this foreign land where I didn't know too many people.
Nick (05:19)
Yeah. Yeah, it's California is a foreign land anyway.
Dana Farber (05:23)
Yes, exactly. More love and no shame to California. The people who love it, love it. And I absolutely love to visit. I have a lot of friends that live there, but yeah, just, there's something about the Midwest that, really just stuck with me. And I was like, if you like where you're from, you're pretty lucky and you can stay there.
Nick (05:40)
Yep, agreed. So, okay. So now you can tell me the story about when you were moving and whatever happened. all I know is it was a big
Dana Farber (05:50)
Yeah, so the the this is I mean, I think it's I, I don't share the story very often just because it's one of those, I don't look back on the time fondly. But at the same time, I think it's one of those things where if something's gonna happen, of course, it's gonna happen the day you start your business. And so this was, you know, I had given my notice at exponential, my boss had been very supportive of it. Actually, everyone knew I was starting my own business when I left. So there was no
kind of dicey exit, it was very open and it just made sense for me and everyone agreed. And I was excited to move back to Chicago. So with a cross country move, you put your stuff in God's hands, basically, you put it in a moving truck and you hope it's there on the other side. And I've always been a fairly like frightful person of thinking that the worst is always gonna happen. But the very same week that I officially stopped working at my full -time job and started
On my own, my first week I had two client calls set up. I was very lucky in that I was able to get clients before I actually started the business. So that was just very lucky. Two client calls the next day, I get a phone call from the moving company that your shipment has been lost. There was a fire, there was electrical fire, the truck is in flames, you no longer own anything. I mean, and it was everything. was like, know, material things, of course, but everything I'd ever owned, you know, piece of clothing.
photos, know, sentimental items. I'm very big into vintage and antiques, so things that are, you know, not very replaceable. And all the material things aside, I think the biggest shock was just, like, I'm starting a business tomorrow and I don't own pants. Like, I remember saying that to my parents, just being like, I don't know, I don't have, I don't own pants. Like, I don't, I'm so confused where, like, my life is heading right now because I am starting this business tomorrow.
Officially and I have to simultaneously replace everything I own before I moved back to Chicago in a week. So It was very frightening at the time But also I think I kind of developed a sense of humor about it and my early clients did too because they were so in shock Also, this was happening to me that it kind of just bonded us from the quick that like wow, you know She's human this stuff happens. Everyone was very nice. I got a lot of brand swag that first
couple weeks from clients being like, you know, might need this more than I do. And you know, all's well that ends well. I eventually replaced my stuff and you know, now I don't look back on it as traumatic as it was at the time, but I think the timing of it is just, I think it's just the universe has a way of testing your limits and it's all about how you respond in the moment. And the fact that I didn't crumble and just kind of took it as like.
Well, good thing I have something else I can focus on right now and I compartmentalized as much as I could and still built my business. You know, it's something now I can look back and be pretty proud of that moment and, you know, very, very early on in my entrepreneur journey.
Nick (08:54)
Yeah, well, I think the reason that I wanted to ask you about it is because of your perspective in the message to me, you'd said, you know, it's important for me to recognize that there's, you can only control what you can control, right? And there's so much of this stuff that's out of your control. the way you respond is the most important thing. And I mean, I agree,
Dana Farber (09:07)
Mm
Nick (09:16)
you'd like to learn that lesson or be able to share that lesson, hang on through simpler things than losing everything in a fire, right?
Dana Farber (09:24)
Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Not ideal, but at the same time, you know, it's now when a client is says, you know, when something catastrophic happens, there is a level of relatability and empathy that I understand there that it's, you know, at the end of the day, the reason I started my agency was not, you know, necessarily to make money. I mean, obviously that is the reason I work, but, but I saw an opportunity, especially we're in franchising.
that there's a level of humanity to building a business that sometimes gets lost in the process. And I wanted to make sure that when I was on the other side of the equation that it would never get lost and that the person that starts the business and their business are one in the same, know, and they should be treated with the same level of respect and just.
kind of connection that, I think I love marketing. love marketers of all shapes and sizes, but I think that it tends to become a very big numbers game and you just start to lose sight of the why behind things. So I always try to bring myself back to that when every, you know, from client work to just client interactions, I think it's incredibly important to treat everyone as a human first and realize that, that, you know, so much of it again, can get lost your Slack and email and texts and all the ways that we communicate
is that it's really important for me to get on calls with my clients, to look them in the eye, to be able to have a really open and candid, transparent relationship with them. And I think it's something they value as well, to kind of have this outside stakeholder that cares a lot about their business, even though, you know, I really don't have a stake in it other than, you know, as a partner. So it's really benefited me, I think, to go through certain experiences. And again, by no means am I saying that's the worst thing that could happen to anyone. But, you know, I think it just helps bond people together and look
beyond the traditional KPIs we track for relationship success.
Nick (11:20)
Yeah. And it may not be the worst thing that's ever happened to anybody, but maybe it's able to help shape the way that you view things without you having to go through something worse. Right. It's like, okay, that's plenty of a lesson for me. Yeah. And I mean, and I think that, you know, I don't want to understate that because like the reason why I wanted to talk to you is because I've,
Dana Farber (11:30)
Mm -hmm. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I'm like, I got it. I got it. I got the test. Thank you. Thank you. We did it. We're good.
Nick (11:48)
having seen some of your work with Matt, and then got to know you a little bit, like there's something different about your, your, your message, your work, like it comes through. And I have an idea of where that comes from now. But that's what I want you to share. Like, it's just like I talked to you about with Roland, where I read some of his work. And I was like, okay, that shit's good. That's different, right. And I and the same thing with yours with Matt and woven, it's like, hmm, okay, that
Dana Farber (12:07)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah, it is.
Nick (12:18)
That's different. know, everybody, marketers and everybody else, they all talk about like relationships and how important all that is. But not many people say what you just said about like, I need to have a conversation. I need to like see their face. I'm, you didn't use these words, but like I'm losing sleep over their business just like they are. Right. Yep. And so, and I think that that probably
Dana Farber (12:28)
huh.
Yeah, yeah,
Nick (12:47)
Like it's not an accident that you're reading some of the things that you were putting out got my attention. So now all of that said, that's what I want to ask you like from your perspective, what's different about your work? Why does your work jump out to
Dana Farber (12:54)
I appreciate
Well, first, I really appreciate those kind words and to be in such illustrious, same, same, you know, audience as them. But I would say, and it's something I kind of realized early in my career was a little different than just I always wanted to take a beat and dive a little bit deeper. Even when I was working in social media and just getting, you know, used to agency life, I was always the last person to stay at a client meeting. And I would always try to have a deeper conversation or something with
during that meeting and I'd want to ask further questions. I think my natural curiosity behind
understanding what makes people tick and why they make certain decisions, which I'm just like a natural curious like I've always just been that way. Like I ask a lot of questions and I'm probably like it's a lot for people. But I'm curious. I want to know why they do certain things or why they made the decision. It's fascinating to me and I think that there is so much to be learned, especially like the way I always like to think about adopting a brand. When I sign a new client and I'm
be running their social channels or their email marketing or whatever I'm running, that requires so much trust from a person who has built a brand to now relinquish that control over to me and say, okay, now you're going to be leading control of messaging. And I pride myself on the fact that after about a month or two, my clients stop.
going through approval processes. They completely hand over the process to me. And it's not something that I fight for. I'm happy to do approvals, but they don't want to. And it's because I get deep in their heads. I try to ask every possible question. I try to understand, and I try to, like, in a non -creepy way, talk like them, think like them. When I'm running their accounts, sorry, just got caught, when I'm
people's accounts when I'm doing their brand work. For them, I almost like adopt, you know, in a Patrick Bateman way, like a different personality. And it's how I've always worked in, used to run eight different social media clients accounts at the same time. The only way my brain worked was to kind of turn on and turn off different voices. And the only way for me to do that was to really understand my clients and what they want and what they are not just telling me what they want, what they really
And a lot of that comes just from, you know, working with them longer, but also I asked them a lot of questions. I want to know why they do what they do, why they started their business. And not just because so I can write pretty copy, but so that I can actually get into the psychology of what they're trying to achieve with their business, because every client is going to come to you and say, I want more leads. I want to make money. I want to sell, you know, I mean, of course those are the goals that any entrepreneur are going to have, but there's always a deeper goal somewhere. And I think that is my job and any marketer's job
to really uncover what, what, did you start a business? What are, what do you really want out of this? Is it to help people? Is it to, you know, retire at 40? You know, I mean, there is some deeper root, even, you know, non -financial ones. And to me, that is the make or break of selling and marketing brands. So if my work has resonated at all, it's because I really try to think a level deeper.
I call it mindful marketing. That's kind of the term I've coined around my process and my, my perspective on the industry. but again, it's something that's resonated with my clients and I think it's early on, they can see it's different working with me. I'm not just asking, you know, the same four questions over and over and doing, you know, rudimentary check -ins. I really genuinely want to know the answers and not just for work for myself to work with them.
Nick (16:43)
Yeah. So it's what I'm hearing is like, you want to understand the motivation and the thought process and then use that to inform your work and to contrast that to a lot of the experiences that people have that we see. It's like we typically get asked the same three or four questions. Answers are taken at face value. And then the output is basically a different version of the stuff
Dana Farber (16:51)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Nick (17:13)
is already out there that everybody's doing.
Dana Farber (17:14)
Yeah, exactly. And I think that's why marketing has gotten almost a bad rap over the last few years in that people do not focus on it as, and I know a recent guest of yours had talked about marketing as a process. And I think that's so important. It's such an important distinction because marketing is a process. is the most important process. One of the most important processes you can put into your business. And because people have always treated it as an ancillary add -on,
that's the way that it's like a cycle. You treat marketing like it doesn't matter. You're gonna get marketing that doesn't matter. If you treat marketing as an extension of your brand that lives and breathes as your brand lives and breathes, it becomes absolutely tied to the success of your business and they become indistinguishable from one another. I wish that all founders, my for my business is to, and I had Matt write this wonderful testimonial. I did not put these words into my mouth.
his mouth, but he had said that he's a skeptic and I have kind of like started to break some of that skepticism. That is my, that is my, yeah, that was his and like he is a skeptic and that is to me like the biggest accomplishment I could get in my job and I don't even know if I knew that until I saw that testimonial, but I said that is what I want to do. I want people who have maybe always thought marketing doesn't work or I just don't get marketing or I don't think it's that important. I want them to work with me and understand.
Nick (18:16)
knew that was his. I knew it him.
Dana Farber (18:39)
why it's so important and not just that it's important but why it's important. I want them to understand the why the same way they want me to understand their why. Like it's a handoff and it becomes a relationship and that's why I've been really lucky that I've had clients that have stayed for you know two, three, four years with me because you know that trust is built, that relationship is built and so any as they scale and grow their business I'm just a part of that equation now which is you know just so flattering.
Nick (19:06)
Yeah. Well, think, yeah, listening to you talk about it. I think it was, John Jance is, was one of the people who said the marketing is, is the process. Roland is good, big on like he's kind of got his process. but you guys are, you're craftsmen, right? It's not, it's not a hobby and it's not something that, that is in purely an art form that, that you, know, you're just gonna go
do a thing and come back with like not gonna exploit the nebulousness of it being a creative endeavor. And I think as a business owner, that's like very appreciated, right? Because I know I can speak for me. I know what Matt Goebel thinks about it. It's like, want, I'm gonna trust somebody to be my voice here and they need to understand
Dana Farber (19:44)
Mm -hmm. That's a good way to phrase it.
Nick (20:02)
what I'm thinking and how I want this to be conveyed. that's what got my attention when I read, when I saw some of work that you'd done with them. So you do B2B and B2C,
Dana Farber (20:14)
Correct, correct, yes, I do both.
Nick (20:17)
Okay, tell me about the clients that you're looking for.
Dana Farber (20:20)
That's a great question. It's always always a moving target because I never want to
Have someone say, that's not me. can't work with her because I really, I love working with brands of all different levels, shapes and sizes. But I would say that if I'm gonna, I think that I do have a sweet spot for any kind of multi -location brand due to franchising. I just understand the model of having different levels to your business, having different key stakeholders. It's an area I find really interesting and exciting. So I do have a few hospitality and restaurant clients and I love that space. It's just continuously
but also there's a consistency to it that you can start to track when you work with them year over year and there's a seasonality that just it gets really comforting once you start to track that cycle.
Really, the types of clients that I like to work with are the ones who are doing something different in their category. They don't just want to be aware, kind of like XYZ with one key difference. They are carving their own niche in a category that does not exist. And all of my clients kind of have that in common that there was not.
their product, service, anything like it before they were there. And I find that extremely interesting because the people that again, I'd go back to why does someone start their business? The reason they started that business, there is
a vision that they have a grander vision than just creating a business and making money from it. They want to do things differently. You, anyone can start a business. I truly believe that. I don't think everyone can start a brand and those are different things. So it's important to me that I want to work with people that are building a brand. Even if that's a single location, even if that is one product, it doesn't matter. They understand that what they are doing is different, it's unique. They want to lean into their uniqueness
instead of, know, a sea of sameness, I want the one who is rising above the tide. I want the one, weirdo in the corner, who's doing something totally different than everyone else at the party. Like, that's the person I wanna talk to. Like, I
Pop culture, I love the status quo. I'm a very basic girly, I love when people are doing something different. love, I pay attention to it. Other people pay attention to it. It makes you stop in your tracks and think, what? Why didn't this exist before? Or what made you think that? Anything that gets me excited, I know.
then I know I'm excited to do your marketing for you. You you got to excite me. And that's also just comes across through the passion of the founder. You know, people who don't know their business are not people I want to work with. I want them to know their business. I want them to understand their limits and their capabilities, where they fit in. Obviously, I help with a lot of brand positioning work and things like that, but I never want someone to come up to me to fix their business. I want somebody who understands what they're doing and why they're doing it. Everything else we can do, but
never tell you someone why they're doing their business. You know, they don't have a strong vision for it, that's like, that's the one thing marketing, you know, all the pretty copy and great videos out there in the world, they, they would be nothing if there was not a bigger mission or vision being tied to that.
Nick (23:39)
Yeah, you can't really prop up a lack of conviction.
Dana Farber (23:42)
Exactly, exactly. So I always say I like to work with visionaries. I guess it's like a catch -all for those people, but it's hard to quantify who these people are because they're just different, and I like that. The people who are different are the people I like to work with.
Nick (23:44)
Hmm. Yeah.
Yeah, so I mean, when we were at first when we were talking about this and we were kind of trying to like come up with an answer that's in like a by labeling the business. It. And I don't see a great fit. I'm kind of with you there, but when the more you talk about the the type of owner or leadership that you want to work with, like that's a lot clearer because I do think that those people kind of are are better
Dana Farber (24:12)
We're good.
Thank you.
Nick (24:28)
and they're getting better all the time. It like self selecting like, hey, that you're describing me. Like I know what I've got here. I know how impactful it is and how it's different, but I need like somebody to broadcast
Dana Farber (24:32)
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Right, right. And Matt Goebel who has been on this podcast, he's a great example of that. And we got introduced and it was like right away we knew that we, it was a good fit. just, we don't speak the same language, but we speak the same tone, I guess, you know, so we can learn the language. But, but we, we're, we vibrate on the same frequency, I guess.
Nick (25:03)
Yeah. So when you were talking about getting inside the mind of a client, I was thinking about the jokes that I can make about Matt. But, but jokes aside, I bet that probably went pretty well because I mean, you're clearly a good communicator. And I think Matt's good communicator also, Matt's really good at, at, distilling things down to like here, here's all that really matters in this
Dana Farber (25:09)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Nick (25:32)
Okay, so One of the things that we're that we're wanting to try to do here is kind of put ourselves out there and hopefully not embarrass me a great deal. I'm okay. I'm open to be embarrassed a little bit. But yeah, so I wanted to see you brought some type of exercise or we're to do some type of workshop where we're going to put each other on the spot here.
Dana Farber (25:40)
Never.
I sure did. I sure did. Yes. Yes.
Nick (25:55)
and see how this goes. I want you to flex your muscles.
Dana Farber (25:59)
Perfect. So yeah, so we're going to do an exercise and the reason that we came up with this exercise together kind of was...
I talk a lot about mindful marketing and really what that is other than it just sounds nice, is it's about authentic and empathetic marketing. And I think in order to be authentic, you have to be empathetic. can't speak with authenticity if you don't know the people that you're talking to. And I find that a lot of clients when they first come to me, again, it's not their fault. It's how marketing itself needs marketing. Marketing itself has gotten a bad rap.
know, and it sounds even like just if you're like, marketing, know, what are we gonna do?
put a Facebook ad out there, we're gonna go cold email someone, neither of which are marketing, but I can't get into that. Like, you know, it's just people don't think of themselves as consumers and as victims of marketing and users of marketing. So what I like to do, I like to always start with my clients with what I call consumer insight mapping. So it's a little exercise that we're gonna do together today. And so basically, I'm gonna prove to you and I don't think you're a skeptic, Nick, but pretend you're a skeptic who doesn't believe in marketing for the
so I'm gonna ask you a series of questions based on a recent purchase that you made. so do you have anything you've purchased in the last week? it can be online, can be in -store, online is helpful for these purposes, but it can be anything. anything you've bought in the last week that we can use as an example.
Nick (27:33)
We can do a book or I I wouldn't got a haircut. Can you tell?
Dana Farber (27:36)
Okay.
I sure can. sure can. Either of those work. Either of those work. So, okay. Yeah, I know you just don't want to seem so vain on this podcast, Okay, perfect. Let's start with the book. Okay, so you bought a book this week. I'm going to ask you a series of questions and each one of them is going to hopefully shape all the different parts of a marketing funnel that we need as a brand.
Nick (27:43)
Let's do the book. I don't want to talk about my hair.
Dana Farber (28:06)
reverse engineer what is the ultimate endpoint that's already happened at this point in the conversation that you made a purchase. So what was the initial need? What was the initial problem or need that led you to consider making this purchase for this specific book? And you can share the book too if you would
Nick (28:22)
It is 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership and
Dana Farber (28:28)
great.
Nick (28:31)
the I try to always be have a book that I'm reading and I was just about finished with the one, the previous one and someone yeah, that was next in
Dana Farber (28:45)
Okay, perfect. So you're a consistent reader. It's something that maybe you have a list somewhere going. It's something you keep a pulse on. New books, you talk about books with people. So books are in interest of yours, something consistent, and you're always trying to read a new one. So you're always trying to kind of keep up with that. So how did you first hear about this specific
Nick (29:08)
Someone mentioned it in a post somewhere online. I do not remember
Dana Farber (29:13)
Okay, so someone mentioned it at that point that they mentioned it. Did you mark it down somewhere at the time they mentioned it? Okay, so you marked it down. I personally, I use Goodreads to track my to read list, but everyone has their own to read list, I'm sure somewhere. So you marked it down at the time you didn't save the post, but you marked down that book from a post that you read, correct? Okay.
Nick (29:35)
Mm -hmm. I went to actually went to Amazon and added it to my
Dana Farber (29:39)
You added to your list on Amazon. Intent to purchase. We like it. So what caught your attention specifically about this book? Was there a benefit of it? Was it an author you knew? the cover look interesting? What was it about this particular book that caught your interest?
Nick (29:55)
It was mentioned, this is coming back to me now. It was mentioned by another business owner. Let's see, how did this come about? There was another business owner who I saw a post that they made and they were talking about the business coach that they were working with. so when I was looking into that business coach, that book was on their
like those attached to them somehow.
Dana Farber (30:25)
Okay, so it attached to the business coach. Is this separate from the post you saw or this is the same post that you had seen? Okay, Okay.
Nick (30:31)
Yeah, it was separate from the post. So the post sent me to this, this second person's profile where I
Dana Farber (30:39)
this person, did you already follow them or this was the first time you were seeing them? Okay, so this is now basically kind of two impressions you've had of this book now at this point. Did you research or compare other similar books at the same time? Did you look at reviews? Did you look at, did you price compare? Did you do any kind of comparison before you added this to your cart?
Nick (30:42)
Mm -mm. First time ever.
The only thing that I did was I mentioned it to Kelly, my wife, and she was familiar with it and said, yeah, another person that we know has been either read it or been through the program, I'm not exactly sure, but has experience with
Dana Farber (31:05)
Okay?
Okay, okay, okay. So if anyone's keeping track at home, we're now counting three impressions towards this purchase. Now we're starting to see a clearer picture of why you bought this book, perhaps. Did you engage with any content from the brand or let's say the author prior to making a purchase? Did you look at their blog, their website, any social media? Did you engage at all with their brand?
Nick (31:41)
I I'm 90 % sure that I did it before I clicked buy.
Dana Farber (31:47)
Okay.
Nick (31:49)
But yeah, I went, it was on the website, went through, they have some materials on their, on their website, resources available. So yeah, I kind of checked into their whole ecosystem.
Dana Farber (32:00)
Okay, and so by doing that, kind of reinforced that you were already thinking about buying this book, but everything you saw on their website reinforced that this book would be valuable based on their existing content. Okay, great. So how many times did you interact with the brand before making a purchase decision? Did you visit their website? You visited their profile of someone? Did you get any emails? Did you watch any videos?
Nick (32:10)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
I don't think so. think when I went to the website, I probably read a couple of articles that they had, downloaded a resource, maybe a second resource. I don't remember exactly, but I got a couple of different pieces of material from them off of their website.
Dana Farber (32:45)
Okay, and everything you read reinforced this decision. This should be the next book I'm going to read. Okay, great. What factors contributed to building trust in the product? Did you read any reviews? Did you, or was it really just that it came from sources you trust, you confirmed it with your wife who had also heard of it, which also gives you a little trust, any outside third party resources you use to validate that purchase?
Nick (32:50)
Mm -hmm. Yep.
No, think it was kind of those two layers were, and then when I went to their website, just the information there, there were certain pieces of it that really resonated that just the way that they're phrasing things that they said were things that I like, I'm familiar with. And so that I think is kind of what pushed me over the
Dana Farber (33:34)
Mm -hmm.
Okay, so a little confirmation bias. You saw some things that resonated with you that you've seen before and it can, yeah, you knew they were right. Exactly, exactly. So what was the final factor that influenced your decision to click add to cart and purchase and the day, the hour that you actually purchased it? Price, did anything affect you there? Convenience?
Nick (33:42)
I knew they were
Yeah.
I went through the process that like, it's so familiar. don't really think about these steps, you know? Yeah.
Dana Farber (34:07)
well, yeah, that's that's the point, Nick. That's how Amazon has we are sheep. We are just being led straight into the cart.
Nick (34:15)
Yeah. I mean, I think by the time I went to their website, I was already going to buy the book at that point. just kind of escalated to really looking forward to it.
Dana Farber (34:20)
right right confirmed it you ultimately made that purchase on amazon or through their website on amazon okay was it an amazon link from their website or what did you search for it separately on amazon
Nick (34:30)
on Amazon. Yeah, I think.
I searched for it separately. Yeah, I think the point where I decided like I'm going to get this book was probably between Kelly's mentioning her familiarity with it and the website. I don't remember which was first.
Dana Farber (34:55)
Okay, but both of those steps helped you ultimately make that purchase and think this is gonna be a solid next book to read. So can you describe the experience of the actual purchase process? Was it easy? Was it straightforward? Were there any obstacles from clicking add to cart to you got that confirmation email? It is on its way to you in two days. Easy peasy, one click.
Nick (35:01)
Mm
Mm
Nope, it was pretty easy. You know Amazon.
Dana Farber (35:20)
one click, all your information is stored. You want it tomorrow? You want to save boxes? We'll get it to you in a day. Yep. And then the last question. So how did you feel after making the purchase? Did you receive any follow -up communication from the brand? Did anything that's happened since you bought the book impact your perception of the book, the author, et cetera?
Nick (35:41)
I don't think I've gotten any communication from them. I'm sure that I've gotten communication from Amazon. But none of them kind of numb to that. The experience, I mean, you know, with Amazon, the books there in a day or two, start reading it a day or two after that. And so far, it's been a good experience. It's met the expectations that I had.
Dana Farber (35:47)
sure.
met the expectations. So if you were to get an email from the author, you know, not directly, but from the publishing group in about two weeks asking you to leave a good review, you would say you would do
Nick (36:23)
Sure, yeah. Yeah, so if they give me a prompt and a smooth path to a review, especially now that I'm doing a podcast, I have a new appreciation for reviews.
Dana Farber (36:29)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Right? Seriously. Yeah, look at them. They just got a whole free ad from this.
Nick (36:38)
Yep. Yeah. So if they prompt me and get, make it a smooth path, I'm an easy person to give a
Dana Farber (36:46)
Okay, perfect. Well, so that was the end of that exercise. So basically, if we reverse engineer it, what I like is in the beginning, it was, bought a book this week.
By the end of our conversation, we realized that there were much greater factors at play to you buying a book this way. You you had to get outside validation to build that trust. You had to get it confirmed. I think we counted four times that you had some confirmation. Not that you weren't gonna buy it, but each step in that process made you more and more likely to make that purchase, potentially even quicker than you would have. So that was moving you from the top of the funnel where
Great, I need a book.
I read books all the time. I just finished a book. I need a book. That was where you were at the beginning. By the end of that journey, this was the only book you were going to read next because you would have it confirmed four different times on four different channels by their own copy on their website, by the ease of use of them being sold directly through Amazon and leveraging a third party platform that already exists. It was confirmed to you by an outside career coach that you liked what they had to say. You might have seen that on LinkedIn.
And then fourth, it was confirmed to you by your own wife, someone in your sphere of influence who had been directly connected to or had heard of this book before. So that's four different impressions it took for you to ultimately make that purchase. So if I was a marketer, which I am, if I, you know, was going to work with this, if this author was going to come to me and say, you know, we're having trouble selling this book.
Or another author was to come to me and say, we're having trouble selling this book. I would use this as a great example of is the ease, it's the process easy. Do we have a website or standalone content that is going to confirm the purchase and shape more of the brand story around this singular purchase, which is something it's a book. You know, it's not a repeat purchase. unless they decide to write a series, this is a solo purchase for them. So how are they building up every step of the marketing process so that you were pretty quick convert for them?
in less than a week, I would say. So I think it's just a really interesting exercise because everyone thinks that marketing is this very rigorous dollars and cents. have to see a sponsored ad on LinkedIn. And if I click on that now, I'm on their list. It is so much more subtle than that. Subtle and I would say slightly insidious due to the Amazon of it all.
and that marketing is everywhere. And I call it to my clients, say it's like seeing the matrix. Once you see it, you cannot unsee it. And now every purchase you make for the next week, you're probably gonna in your mind be, why did I make this purchase? What did, you know, all the steps all made it easier for you to be receptive to that purchase. If they had sent you an email the day after you were gonna purchase with a 15 % off discount, great. They,
would have gotten less for that purchase. So it just shows I think people go straight to a discount and think that's what is ultimately going to get a conversion. No, I mean you can buy things at full price. We do it all the time just by telling the right story and understanding who our end consumer is. And you know they wrote this book for someone like you, someone who's interested in non -fiction, thought leadership, know perspective pieces, someone who's in the
or adjacent to certain industries, because obviously they're marketing in those industries. Someone who's savvy enough to be able to use Amazon and has an account and can make those one -click purchases without thinking about it, you are their ideal customer, and they sold it. So I just find it to be a really interesting exercise because it always gives us a light bulb moment, especially to my most skeptical of clients who think that they themselves can see through marketing and they're not a victim of it. We are all victims of it.
And, you know, I think that's a good thing.
Nick (40:43)
Yeah, so I think that one of the really interesting things that's kind of come to light as we talk through this to me is, and I remember this reaching this point. So, you know, if I put the book on my list, at some point, I'm probably going to get it. You know, like in any book that goes on the list, I'm probably going to do it. But there was a place in this process, like after a couple of those touch points, and I'm sure that it sped
Dana Farber (41:00)
Mm -hmm. Of course, of course.
Nick (41:12)
like moving it to the top of the queue. But I remember for sure it becoming a book that I was 100 % going to read. Even if it wasn't next, I was absolutely going to read it at some point. Like that's an extra box that gets checked for me, right? It's like, got a list of probablys, there's a shorter list of
Dana Farber (41:13)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yep, yeah, you were in.
Exactly. So you in turn were a qualified lead from them because you were saying yes I'm going to read you and then the bumped up every touchpoint probably got you closer to that purchase point You were already a pretty high intent, you know purchaser you like to read
Maybe the cost entry isn't too high. You're going to read this book and then every step in that process got you closer to ultimately making that purchase. And so that's you know, those are small purchases. Those are things that we purchase every day. You know, there is a psychological reason behind every single thing that we purchase and every
website we click on, know, there is and you know, there's there's data, there's cookies and everything that tracks this, but I'm much more interested in these psychological reasons behind consumer behavior. And I think this is a really nice exercise to do with yourself with other, you know, if you work with clients, do this with your clients, because it really just shows that everyone is susceptible to marketing. And the more you understand
Even myself as a marketer susceptible to marketing, realize it gets easier to execute. But I will say the caveat of that is I've also worked with founders that think I wouldn't do this so everyone wouldn't do this. I think you always have to take yourself out and just know that just because you are a consumer who maybe you hate abandoned cart emails and if you get an abandoned cart email now, I'm definitely not buying it. So we're never going to send an abandoned cart email there for everyone.
customer that hates an abandoned car email, there's 20 that love it. So you can't go off of your own wings and desires fully, but I think that using yourself and your team as case studies for the type of marketing that you like to receive and the way that you like to engage with the brand, I think that's a really great stepping stone to understanding how you want to use that for your own brand.
Nick (43:22)
this is all been like very good for awareness. I think a lot of times I've gotten, you just described it. We get ourselves in trouble when we look at what we would do and what we would expect the audience to do as being like the same thing. And they're not, there are some things we can draw from and there are others that we need to disregard. I think, I feel like for me in a lot of cases,
I'm better off if I just completely throw what I would do out the window because I'm not sure that I'm a good example of any of
Dana Farber (43:48)
Right.
Yeah, exactly. I am not my own ideal customer. And so yeah, I know some people who hate podcast ads. I personally like them. It gives me like a way to like, kind of just put it like when you have a commercial just like you can zone out for a couple seconds and then zone back in when your podcast starts. Sometimes your hands aren't free and you can't skip them, you know, so they're just going to be there. you know, everyone, I think it's understanding all the different steps to something even as small as a monthly.
book purchase, a stick of gum, you whatever you're buying, big or small, there are is intent that needs to happen. There is an initial need. You have to have baseline awareness of the brand or product.
You have to have interest. have to have consideration. You have to engage with the brand in some way. There has to be X amount of touch points. There needs to be trust. And then that key decision can happen. So there's a lot of steps that need to happen and not all of them are tied to a marketing activity and some are tied to any marketing activities, but that's how you kind of find that sweet spot that works for your brand. Cause you can't do everything. So you kind of got away. The things that are going to have the most value to you based on what your audience actually wants and what the behavior
starting to see with your consumer. So that's why I think that marketing should be data -driven. Marketing should be empathetic. It should be customer -led. It should be vision -led. And that's kind of where my idea for mindful marketing all comes from.
Nick (45:12)
Yeah, I love that. It sounds from from our conversations, it seems like you've got a pretty consistent, like a structure or process that you like to take clients through to get you to the place that you need to be. Can you talk about that a little
Dana Farber (45:22)
Mm -hmm.
Yes, yes,
Yeah, so I start all of my new clients with what I call brand insight. And I asked them a series of questions about 30 to 40 questions, they spend an hour with me and I dig into not just their business, but also you them as a person. I don't get too personal with it. But it's important that I know, like I said earlier, like what makes them tick what their ultimate motivation is. And I ask a lot of questions about their audience and who they perceive as our audience versus who their actual audience is. I asked for numbers, I asked
data and those are all just the initial starting points that get us to even put together a proposal that makes sense. So I do not do cold proposals. I don't just say great tell me you know give me a five minute picture of your and I'll tell you exactly what you need. I can't promise that and I don't like starting an engagement that way so instead I like to do the brand work at the top. It's part of any process that you do any any kind of work you do with Moonstone we always start with it. Some clients have just done that as a standalone project and
gives them insight, which is it's called brand insight. So it can be standalone. But for me, every single client process starts with a lot of questions, a lot of deep diving in. And then we add in all the organization. There's systems and processes we use to get them where they need to be. And we have three different programs that we can run based on what they're ultimately looking for. But I never just give a proposal off of, you know, an introduction or something like that, because I would never I would never assume to know
someone needs and I don't want them to tell ask me tell me what I need I want to ask them a series of questions so we can dig into what they need because I am not
Again, it's not my business, it's theirs, and I will care as much as if it's my business, but ultimately the motivations need to come from them. So I always say marketing is simple, not easy. It's definitely not easy, but there is like a rule to it. There are processes, there are systems that you can put in place that make it a little simpler to kind of see it more as ones and zeros instead of just this abstract.
catch all for all these different tactics that you can do. Once you start to see that there's different channels, there's different approaches, there's different activities, you start to see that there's categories and it's a little simpler to understand. But I really try not to overwhelm my clients with these are the biggest broadest things we can do. We start small, we build, we grow, we scale together. Every client wants a new website. There's usually 15 things we need to put in place before.
you know, they get a new website. so it's just important for me that I level set with my clients from the beginning, you know, and are real, they're realistic about their expectations, because marketing is not going to fix a broken business and never will. So that's never what I want to be brought on to do. But I'm more than happy to help grow and scale and market a business. But yeah, I definitely, definitely never want anyone think that marketing is a quick fix, because it's, it's definitely when done right, it is anything but.
Nick (48:24)
I just really enjoy listening to like a craftsman talk about the craft. It's not an accident that it this is what you're doing. hearing you talk about some of these things like, you know, from the beginning of our conversation, you're talking about your curiosity being a thing like you always ask a lot of questions and then
Like that's kind of the central piece of you being really good at what you do, right? Like your strength is what puts you in a place to be able to understand the client's brand well enough to then like capture their voice. And it's just fascinating to
Dana Farber (48:56)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah, the biggest compliment I can get when a client is, I've had clients be like, did I write this or did you write this? And it's such a compliment to me because I'm like, I'm in your head, aren't I? I'm living in there. And it's just nice because I know.
Nick (49:08)
That's so cool.
Dana Farber (49:15)
As a business owner, know how hard it is to relinquish control over something as specific as your messaging or your visual identity. These are very, very personal things to a business owner. I don't take it lightly. My team doesn't take it lightly. To me, it's such a compliment when clients feel like they can trust us as their mouthpiece out to the public. Again, it's not something I take lightly. Marketing is extremely important part of your business. It should be looked at as that.
like that and you know the clients that I've been lucky enough to work with also treat it that way.
Nick (49:49)
you only doing work that involves strategy I know you're doing some fractional CMO work,
Dana Farber (49:55)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yes.
So we will work in like projects, you know, we'll do one -off projects for clients that maybe require a little less strategy work, no matter what, we always start with the brand insights. So even if you're just looking for, we had done just a welcome email drip series for a client as a one -off project, as a, know, woman I had met at a
event that's all she wanted all she really had the budget for but I still found a way to work in the brand insight because I again and you know any messaging we put out there especially something that's important it's like your welcome series has to come back to your larger brand and your larger desire and who your audience is so the short answer is their strategy work in everything we do like there's nothing we do that does not require some level of strategy work but I don't only work with clients on a monthly retainer we'll work with clients one -off we'll do
We'll do like we could do an eight week engagement. I had had the idea when I first started Moonstone that my half moon program, which is basically an abridge franchise training of sorts, was going to be my biggest hit and that my two ancillary programs were going to be just kind of one -offs. And of course everyone is gravitated towards full moon. That is my full full service agency retainer program. Also, you know, depending on hours, that's where we fit in fractional CMO work. So, you know, I was wrong, but I still
think there's a niche and I still think there are founders out there who want to learn what they're doing and do it themselves. So if you're out there, if you're listening to this, we do have a program for that as well that isn't, you know, kind of that monthly ongoing retainer. Learn how to do it yourself, use us as a resource for eight weeks and get yourself all the training you need on the categories you need and then self -service from there. So my goal is to work with founders of different stages that want to learn in different ways and want to engage with marketing in
Not every brain has the budget to bring on a fractional CMO or bring on a full -time marketing consultant So there's ways to work with us that that aren't that as
Nick (51:56)
Do they need to have their own marketing resources in place or are you like an entire outsourced marketing department?
Dana Farber (52:03)
So basically we're an entire outsource marketing department. We do content creation, we do strategy work, we do all graphic design and can also work with third party partners. So if we're doing a photo shoot or a video shoot, we can be on site, we can be managing that. So we manage third party vendors for most of our clients as well. So we don't do digital marketing, but if we work with a digital marketing agency, we're kind of managing them. So it's a, we
need an existing marketing resource in -house and honestly it works almost better for us if we don't. The one big thing is we need some sort of brand assets. We need you to already have a logo, we need you to already have a name, we need you to already have some kind of baseline brand materials, but again we can kind of start from there and build up. So we've had clients that are just starting and really like we're like starting their Instagram for them and launching their whole go -to -market strategy.
And then we've had other brands that have, know, are, they're going public, they're looking for, you know, just that growth to take them to the next stage, or they just finally have marketing budget and they don't know where to spend it. So, you know, it really depends. We'll work with different brands of different sizes and different levels. So like where you are in your business and how sophisticated your marketing team is, it doesn't really impact us too much.
Nick (53:21)
Okay, well, this is fantastic. You're great.
Dana Farber (53:24)
Good, I hope this was helpful.
Nick Berry is an accomplished entrepreneur and CEO, whose track record includes founding and leading numerous companies since 2002.
He is also a mentor and coach to other entrepreneurs and business owners who are looking for a trusted (and proven) advisor.
Among peers, colleagues, staff, and clients, Nick has been referred to as both 'The Business Guy' as well as 'The Anti-Guru', due to his pragmatic approach and principled leadership.
He shares his insights and lessons learned, along with those of his expert guests,
on his podcast, 'The Business Owner's Journey'.
