In this episode of The Business Owner's Journey, host Nick Berry interviews John Jantsch, a fractional CMO, speaker, and best-selling author of "Duct Tape Marketing" and other notable books. They discuss the evolution of marketing strategies, the importance of marketing systems, and the rising trend of fractional CMOs. John shares valuable insights and practical tips for business owners to implement effective marketing tactics and leverage AI in their marketing efforts.
John Jantsch shares how he founded Duct Tape Marketing nearly 30 years ago, aiming to simplify marketing for small businesses. He recounts his journey from starting his own agency to developing a systematized approach to marketing that resonated with smaller enterprises. This method, centered on strategy before tactics, eventually led to the creation of his successful Duct Tape Marketing brand.
John discusses how his daughter Sara Nay has grown into the COO role in the company. Sara has also been a guest on the Business Owner's Journey podcast: Sara Nay: Continuous Learning & Growth at Duct Tape Marketing
Nick and John emphasize the significance of viewing marketing as a system. John highlights how a structured marketing approach can streamline efforts, reduce frustrations, and yield consistent results. By focusing on strategy and implementing a clear plan, businesses can effectively navigate the complexities of marketing in today’s digital landscape.
John discusses the growing trend of fractional CMOs and how they provide strategic guidance without the full-time cost. He explains the ideal business size for fractional CMOs and how they can bring in a high level of expertise, help in building marketing systems, and ensure the execution of strategic plans, particularly for businesses in the $3 million to $30 million revenue range.
AI's role in modern marketing is a hot topic. John and Nick explore how AI can be utilized to enhance marketing efforts, increase efficiency, and provide better data-driven insights. They also touch on the challenges and opportunities presented by AI, emphasizing the continued importance of human strategic thinking.
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Nick (00:00)
also been doing this for a while. Like you've built your own business and you were doing it before everybody was trying to do it. So if you don't mind, like tell us how Duct Tape Marketing got to where it is and some of the, maybe the milestones that made you think about things the way that you are do and made DTM what it is.
John Jantsch (00:07)
Yeah.
Sure. So I started, I don't know the exact date, but it's coming up on 30 years. I started my own agency and you know, frankly, I went to work right out of college actually for an agency did that for about five years and just thought, you know, I like doing my own thing. Anybody can run a business. Right. So I just jumped out and frankly, I knew I could hustle work. I was good at that. And so
That's what I did. I no real plan. I got a big clients, little clients, big projects, little projects. at some point in it, after a few years, I realized I really loved working with smaller midsize businesses, but they were pretty frustrating. they had the same needs and challenges, had never the same budgets, of course, or even attention spans. and so the, the kind of the traditional way that I had learned to do marketing just wasn't really working. So
I just said, look, I'm going to try something totally different. I'm going to walk into a business and instead of saying, what do you want? I'm going to say, here's what I'm going to do. Here's what you're going to do. Here are the results we hope to get in. Here's what it costs. Do you want it or not? And after the third person said, yes, where have you been all my life? I thought, well, maybe I'm onto something here. And I think what I did was in trying to solve my frustration, I tapped into what is still today, maybe increasingly.
one of the greatest frustrations with small, for small businesses, it's very hard and getting harder to buy marketing services. Everybody's selling a piece of the puzzle, this newfangled thing, you know, of the, of the week. and so the fact that somebody said, look, we're going to install a system. We're going to start with strategy before tactics. and you're going to know what it is going to cost you. I think that was again, music to their ears. So I built my agency completely that way and said, look, I think that,
I can take this out to the world and build a, you know, a course, a type of approach or a methodology or framework. I started writing about it online. I, I did make the decision that it needed a name. It needed a product brand, you know, kind of name. And that's actually where duct tape marketing came from. Was, was really, that was the name of my system, if you will, or my problem, my first product that I sold. and people loved it so much that I was like, maybe I'll call everything that. So it became the name of my first book.
You know, ultimately my business, my podcast as well. and it really, you know, it's, it's interesting. I mean, as you know, we, we now have, you know, several, I say we're over 400 agencies that have licensed this methodology now, because I think a lot of people get that it's like, yeah, this is the way we have to work today. Selling tactics alone is kind of a race to the bottom. And, and so, you know, the, the, I think a lot of people, you know, see what we have done, but, but also evolved and worked on. I mean,
You know, obviously I started my business before the internet, right? So, so it has evolved and, and, you know, what we, what we do now today, you know, is, is in a lot of ways fundamentally has not changed because I think what we do as marketers, you know, really hasn't changed. It's just a new set of tools and buyers have, you know, whole new ways to buy. And we just have to really focus on that. But,
It's been gratifying that that approach still today is somewhat innovative and still garners a lot of attraction.
Nick (03:30)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah. And it's just a different type of noise that you're having to cut through. Right. I remember you. So duct tape marketing was in kind of that first group. There were like three books that I read early on that was like, aha. And, you know, the EMF was one, duct tape marketing was one, and there was one about like the subway story or something. I don't know about that. But the referral engine.
John Jantsch (03:45)
Yeah.
Nick (04:05)
is one that got my attention that I was like, okay, this guy thinks kind of like I do, right? And then, so, you know, I think the appeal to me from your, that I found in your information was that there was a systematic approach to it. And you're probably not the only person to say that marketing is a system, but you're the one that I've heard say that from the beginning. And like, still like that, that's who I think of.
you probably are known as the duct tape marketing guy. And I think of you as like marketing as a system guy, right? Like that's the thing.
John Jantsch (04:38)
Yeah, it's funny. I tell that story that it was kind of a light bulb moment for me. I was speaking to probably a local chamber group or something and said that, you know, marketing is a system. In fact, it's the most important system in your business. And I could just see everybody's like mouths open, like, why hasn't anybody ever told us that before? And that to me was like, I'm on to something. I'm going to keep repeating that idea because I think it really did tap into, you mentioned the E -Myth.
You know, the E -Myth was all about systems. Frankly, the weakest part of anything to do with the E -Myth was marketing, because I think many people have really struggled to try to make marketing, not just a system, but something practical, you know, and not textbook and not something that would be in, you know, in a college course. And I think that was really the challenge that I saw as the opportunity.
Nick (05:30)
Yeah. Yeah. So the practicality of DTM has been something that since we put Entrepreneurs Edge through the agency, through the certification, that was the big appeal was the practicality and it's been a huge help to us. So what about looking forward with Duct Tape Marketing? What do you see ahead for you guys? I mean, I know I've seen Sarah has taken on a more prominent role, at least from
John Jantsch (05:55)
yeah. yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're going to replace me with AI. Basically is what we're going to do. You know, I, I, I, yes. No, Sarah, Sarah's definitely, Sarah is, been with me.
Nick (05:59)
my exposure. So I think I'm assuming you guys have a plan in mind.
Wow, okay.
I didn't think it was gonna get you. I thought it would get somebody. I didn't think it was gonna get you.
John Jantsch (06:22)
of Serenade, our head of operations has been with me for 15 years. She's also one of my daughters. So I guess I should say she's been with me her whole life. But she's definitely taking a more prominent role and has really grown into it, does an amazing job. You know, we have as an organization, I know you've seen us kind of lean a little more into the fractional CMO positioning because I really think that that whole -eyed fractional everything of course is very acceptable.
now, but also I think a lot of organizations, I've never in my 30 years of doing this, never seen more people come to me saying we need strategy. Before I had to like tell them what it was and why they needed it. And I think that there's just a real shift in what people are starting to understand about marketing. I think particularly as hard as it's gotten, as complicated as it's gotten, I think a lot of people have
have, you know, are really kind of waking up to that idea that it's got to start with strategy. If you want to uncomplicate it, it's got to start with strategy first. So, and, and, and frankly, and I'm sure you see this in your business. I mean, digital agencies today, marketer marketing consultants today are just hammered with everybody under the sun, trying to sell them some sort of course or program, or, you know, I mentioned AI already, you know, powered a system, you know, to build their digital agency and
I think that a lot of people are just getting tired
Hehehehehe
Nick (07:46)
I think it goes, you mentioned the tactical race to the bottom, right? I think kind of the, the thing that's evolving. So they're coming to you and they're saying, I need strategy. And they probably always thought they needed something. But now they know the word for that is strategy because I know what we went through and what I, all the businesses that we've worked with have gone through over time.
John Jantsch (07:50)
Yeah, yeah.
I think that's right.
Nick (08:11)
The vast, vast majority are now have come to a place where they're like, I want people who will think, not just who will do. And that's where the strategy is coming to place. Like they need to know like how to think about where we're going and how we're going to get there. Not just somebody who's going to come in and comply with an instruction sheet.
John Jantsch (08:31)
Yeah. Yeah. Or, or, you know, I mean, obviously a lot of agencies have, you know, made a living, selling, you know, a package of tactics that, you know, they niche down to a specific industry. And so, you know, if you're a dentist or a chiropractor, you know, you're getting about 10 of those pitches a day of, you know, people just saying, we'll put 40 people on your calendar tomorrow. and, you know, I think people have just realized that that's just nonsense. And that's, that's not how you build for longterm.
Anyway, and so I think the idea of building a brand strategy, a marketing strategy that is really going to allow us to charge a premium, not only attract the right clients, but charge a premium is, you know, obviously it's very appealing, but it's also a long -term play. It's invest in your business, you know, for marketing play as opposed to, you know, treat it like a slot machine.
Nick (09:20)
going on with this movement towards fractional everything, but fractional CMOs. What do we need to look for? How do we know what's what? How do we know what we need? How do we know when? How do we know how much? All the things.
John Jantsch (09:29)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, well, the biggest thing, and I've said this about anybody that you're higher. I mean, it is obviously they are not only talking strategy, but they demonstrate that they have a framework to, to apply. You know, a lot of, a lot of the mistakes, I think I see anybody who hires somebody, they just go out and they say, you've been a CMO for XYZ company. You know, come on down and you know, tell me what you're going to do for us.
and I think that, you know, what happens is they just get a lot of, maybe they get a lot of interesting things in the beginning, but you know, nothing really happens, from that. And so the idea that somebody can walk in and say, look, here's what we're gonna do first. Here's what we're gonna do next. Here's how we're going to align with, you know, with your overall business objectives. if they're not coming to you with a plan. and I, and I know some people are like, but I want to something customized. That's great. but.
If you don't have a framework and a structure that you're going to customize around, you're going to end up spinning your wheels a lot. A lot of business owners, I'll talk to them and say, you need strategy. And they're like, no, we did that before. We got in a room with a whiteboard and some sticky notes. I don't really ever, yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't really know what became of all that, but we did that already. And so showing somebody what strategy, I mean, we spend a lot of time.
Nick (10:39)
Check that box. Yeah, that's it on the shelf over there.
John Jantsch (10:53)
teaching people what strategy actually is and what it's not. There's a lot of confusion. Google doesn't help. If you Google marketing strategy, you're going to find a list of a whole bunch of marketing tactics from them. So really understanding what it is and why it is so important is half the job, I think, as we attract clients and teach them what it actually is and what it can do for them.
Nick (11:18)
Mm hmm. So, all right. So if I'm listening, I'm a small business or any size business, how do I know when it's time for me? How do I start the search?
John Jantsch (11:30)
Sure. You bet. So, you know, there's, there's anybody who started a business. I mean, at first you just like traction, proof of concept. Can I get anybody to actually pay me? Right. I mean, so those are a lot of times you're just flailing around, just trying to figure out what works. And then, you know, you've been in a business, maybe three years, you start getting, even getting north of a million dollars. You know, anybody who's listening, you know, once you cross that magical number, you know, you're thinking, this is awesome. But then also some new problems started.
creeping up. And, you know, maybe you got to that point because the founder or you were pretty good at selling. And so as you start adding people, you're going to start adding complexities. And, you know, a lot of people, you know, will then just start throwing darts at like, we're supposed to be on TikTok and we're supposed to be doing this. And so things kind of get out of control. You're wasting money on things. You still may actually, so, have some progress here. So now maybe you're at three million.
Well, now it's time to really, I kind of talk about the fractional CMO really fits in the three to $30 million business. Obviously there are a lot of range in there, but there's also a lot of complexities and differences in businesses. But that's the point where, you know, if you just take the kind of traditional five to 8 % of your revenue should be invested in marketing. You know, that's the point where you can start to afford somebody who is going to be a higher level.
kind of senior marketing person, but on a fraction of the cost. So maybe a fourth of what you might pay for somebody sitting in that seat. You get to $30 million and you should probably have a marketing department at that point and should be run by a fractional CMO or a CMO in general. So all along that very large spectrum, I believe that there's room for a fractional CMO.
what a fractional CMO does for a $30 million business as opposed to a $3 million business probably varies greatly. You know, the lower end of that spectrum, you really just need somebody who's got expertise to help you understand what a marketing system looks like. Maybe they have a bench of people that they can bring to bear, you know, if you don't have any folks. And, you know, I often use the word orchestrate because I think that that's a piece that's also
very important for a fractional CMO, especially working with that smaller business. They're not really there to just come in and say, here's what I see, here's your plan, good luck. They really are there to actually make sure that the plan gets executed, to actually hold the business owner accountable, be an advocate for marketing, be an advocate for the customer. And that involves a lot of the orchestration, whether they're doing it or outsourcing it to strategic partners.
Having that single point of contact that's really running at all is probably, especially for a smaller business, is probably the biggest benefit of hiring somebody that thinks like a fractional CMO. They don't have to really, I mean, there are things that a CMO would do in terms of being a part of the C -suite and being access to the P &L and some things on a larger business,
smaller business.
would benefit from somebody who thinks like a fractional CMO, even if they don't call themselves that.
Nick (14:51)
What kind of like predictive symptoms might they be picking up that it's like, you know, if you heard them you and you were in their ear, you can tell them like, Hey, these are the signs. Like it's time you may need to look for somebody like this.
John Jantsch (15:01)
Yeah, yeah.
Well, one of my favorites is they're actually growing as a business, revenue, top line revenue wise, but they're still competing on price. That's a really huge indicator that there's a lack of real strategy, effective strategy. And then the second piece is that the customer journey is kind of broken.
They view it as like, our job is to get a customer as opposed to no, our job is to actually see what we could do more with our existing customer. Our job is to turn our customers into advocates. So there's that whole, what happens after the sale part that a lot of businesses don't actually even view as marketing that I think is really a key role for that fractional CMO. I mean, you may have a sales director and they had a service or something like that.
But the fractional CMO is actually, I think can play a great role in integrating and tying all of those together so that the customer gets to go on the journey they want to go on.
Nick (16:04)
Sometimes these interviews, it's like I get a fresh gut punch. I just remember times where I was like, I would pay, I just want to outsource the entire
you.
John Jantsch (16:16)
I think that that's really why if you can find that right person that you can trust, you know, that has the right point of view, you know, that's, I think every business owner, right? You know, it's unfortunate, but I mean, about 2 % of all businesses out there are started by people that have much experience or knowledge of marketing. And so, you know, they know how to swing a hammer, they know how to do taxes, you know, but this marketing thing is very foreign and yet it's...
crucial. And so a lot of times, you know, they get involved, you know, up to their neck in it. But you know, it's like, anything that you don't really enjoy doing, you're probably not going to do well.
Nick (16:53)
Yeah. Yeah. It's like we knew how to do a thing. And that thing was usually not the marketing.
a data guy, right? Like you're, this is not guesswork for you.
John Jantsch (17:02)
Yeah, absolutely.
know, that's another thing, obviously, that a fractional CMO should bring to you. You know, you asked me a while ago about like, what should you be looking for? Somebody who is very interested in tying marketing to business outcomes. And, you know, looking at things like cost to acquire a customer and lifetime value of a customer. I mean, if they're not asking you, you might not know the answers to those, but if initially they're not,
Asking you to start finding ways to look for those then you probably You know are talking to the wrong person, you know, a lot of a lot of marketers want to report You know, here's your keyword rankings and here's your you know traffic to your website and those are You know underlying symptoms of of growth But they really are not you're not tying, you know what you're doing or what you're spending heaven forbid, you know
to an outcome and that's to me is one of the greatest things that a fractional CMO or anybody who thinks strategically about marketing is going to open your eyes to.
Nick (18:04)
was, so what made me think about you and the data. And I've heard you say those things before several times. but you also shared a report recently that you did you, you an active campaign, I think. and I think. Okay. Yeah. And so talk a little bit more about that because what I took from it was this, it's what got me thinking again about.
John Jantsch (18:17)
And, yeah, and data box, yes.
Nick (18:27)
People want, like we're looking for to bring on board people who can think and do strategy, not just do things, right? Like there's data behind this movement.
John Jantsch (18:37)
That's right. Yeah.
Yeah. So we surveyed a couple hundred fractional CMOs and their clients. And one of the questions we asked their clients was, you know, what is, what do you attribute as the biggest benefit to working with a fractional CMO? And frankly, I thought it was going to be cost. You know, it was, it was cheaper, right? To work with a fractional CMO than to hire one. And cost was on the list. I think it was about third. Number one was, it, we needed
to think more strategically. That was absolutely the number one by far, two to one over the second answer. And so I think what a lot of businesses that grow to a certain level of success, they actually don't hire a senior marketing person because they don't really know what to tell them to do or what they actually should be doing, right? And so consequently, they...
Nick (19:29)
That was me.
John Jantsch (19:32)
you know, they don't do it and that part of their business suffers. And so I think part of the attraction of the fractional CMO is, is far less risky. in a lot of ways it's, it's still seen as, I mean, as somebody you hope turns into a trusted advisor, but if it doesn't work out, man, next move on, you know, move on the next one. So, I think that that, the, that marrying of the fact that people are realizing they need to be more strategic and here's a, here's an option that seems pretty desirable. I think that's what's really grown to the,
the massive, you know, over 60 % growth in fractional CMOs in the last five years. And I think a lot of it, you know, a lot of factors have come together. You know, COVID, you know, certainly sped it up. The fact that a lot of people are jumping out, doing their own thing, fractional everything, this idea to, you know, we need to be more strategic. I think all of those things have aligned to really make this role probably the, you know, the fastest growing role in marketing today.
Let's face it, you know, you said, tactics are a race to the bottom. it's tactics are still important, but if you're an agency out there selling tactics, then you're competing with the person that that's designing $150 WordPress sites. and that's where it, that that's the race to the bottom, because, you know, it's just going to get cheaper and cheaper and we can argue whether or not any of those sites are any good or if AI is actually going to, you know, effectively be able to.
do some of the things that people are promising it can do. But the fact is that's who you're competing with now. And so, by adding this strategy first type of approach, you really find a way to differentiate yourself. And I think that's why a lot of agencies have been attracted to our approach is you could still actually do and recommend the same set of tactics. All of a sudden you're just not competing on price for them anymore.
Nick (21:24)
Yeah. So it seems like there's also an opportunity where if, you know, so strategy, delivering strategy may not be for everybody. If you are a tactical person, if that is your thing, if you need to, if you want to build the websites, like that's, that's all fine. There's a place for that, like you're saying, but it seems like there's an opportunity for these providers to cluster together. And I'm sure that there's at least some are right.
John Jantsch (21:51)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah. And anybody who's going to put themselves out there as a fractional CMO, you know, better be building a team of best of class providers because you, you know, you're, as I said, in most instances, people are going to say, this is amazing. Who's going to do it. So, you know, part of your service needs to be, I can connect you or I can manage these people, or I can manage your team. I can help you build a team. I mean, those are all things that need to be consideration.
Nick (22:16)
Yeah. I mean, like I said, the thing that went through my mind from the beginning was I want to outsource the whole department. Like, does anybody say that? Do people come to you and say, I want you to take it all.
John Jantsch (22:23)
Right. yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's, there's a fine line between delegation and abdication. But but there's no question that that's what they want.
Nick (22:33)
You
All right. Was there anything else from the study in particular that you wanted to mention?
John Jantsch (22:42)
so going back to the fractional CMOs, you know, we asked them the same question. You know, what do you associate as the biggest benefit to your agency, you know, to now offer fractional CMO services? And of course, number one, there, no surprise was it makes us more strategic, right? But number two, I was so happy to see because it validated what I have known and experienced for many, many years is it
makes us, we create better relationships with our clients. So in other words, by coming in, doing strategy in the front end, you actually develop a trusted advisor kind of relationship as opposed to a vendor who gets hired to do X, Y, Z tactics. You've been through our process. I mean, we get so deep into a customer's business during strategy first that we're able to actually share with them.
things that they don't even understand about their business. And you immediately elevate your role in that relationship because you now, in most cases, you're now not just saying, we need to do this, this, and this. It's like, no, we need to execute the plan to go here. And now they let you be in charge of it. There are people that have been selling two, $3 ,000 implementation packages, that's what you can buy.
that they'll actually run people through strategy first, sell that exact same package, but now for $5 ,000. It doesn't mean it was any more or less relevant. It's just positioned so completely differently because of the strategy engagement.
Nick (24:22)
where do they, what's the starting point with you? Where do I, where do we want to point people to
John Jantsch (24:25)
Well, I tell you what, we have created a choose your own adventure page. And so if you go to dtm .world, so dtm is inducted marketing, .world slash growth, you'll find a page there that if you're a business owner and you're like, I need to find out how to get one of these fractional CMOs, we've got resources for you there. If you are an agency consultant, current fractional CMO, and you've realized I need a repeatable framework and system,
We've got lots of tools for you there. You just pick your path and you'll be able to find pretty much anything you want.
Nick (24:59)
Nice. Are you gonna write any more books?
John Jantsch (25:02)
I don't think so, actually, but I don't know, who knows. Maybe I'll write some fiction.
A marketing consultant murder mystery. How's that sound?
Nick (25:10)
So.
I don't know, but could be, well, I don't know, might be a little too close to home, but you got to express your creative side. You can't just be all systems all the time, right?
John Jantsch (25:20)
That's right.
Nick (25:27)
So just some, maybe a little bit lighter questions like, what kind of, so I know you're a tech guy. I know you got into AI because when it got hot, that's when we were going through the certification and you were digging into AI.
John Jantsch (25:39)
huh. Yeah.
Nick (25:43)
What kind of like resources or tools, like you got anything, any of your favorites, things you can't live without?
John Jantsch (25:51)
Huh,
Nick (25:53)
Or what are you having the most fun with right now?
John Jantsch (25:54)
Well, you know, I take just as you know, when the web came along and then when social media came along and you know, all these new tools come along. I do really love I think that's what's allowed us to stay relevant for many years is that I do really love the new stuff. And so, but I take a decidedly different view. You know, a lot of people get out there and it's like, we need first mover advantage so we can hype it and, you know, get ahead of things.
I mean, the world's littered with hundreds of thousands of social media marketing agencies, right? That, you know, people realized, it's just marketing. So for us, you know, any tool or any new platform that I look at, you know, my question's always, what's the practical use for this that's going to allow me to serve my clients better than I do today? So with that filter, I think you can go into pretty much any new tool and say, yeah, this is one we ought to focus on or no, this is one we shouldn't.
You know, things like clubhouse, remember clubhouse? You know, that was the, I mean, I, I looked at that and I was like, I don't see, I apply that filter to it. Nope. I'm going to pass. It doesn't seem to really make sense. Yeah, that's right. so, so as far as AI goes, there are amazing practical efficiencies, to, to using that.
Nick (26:57)
for a minute.
We're all still complaining about how we used to do teleconferences, right?
John Jantsch (27:21)
as a tool that is going to allow us to do things faster, is going to do, allow us to actually add more value. I mean, we're able to actually give clients really for the same amount of time. We're able to actually give them more deliverables. However, what I actually see it doing is making people like you and I who think strategically, actually more important because what we're seeing right now is just a glut of people.
you know, putting out garbage because, Hey, it's easy. It's easy to do right. It's like email. It's free to send email, right? Well, it's, you know, really easy to write 500 word blog posts with AI. But you know, they're not going to serve anybody. They're not going to be useful. In fact, at some point, you know, search engines and people are going to, you know, really start tuning them out. You know, one thing people don't talk enough about when it comes to AI is a lot of marketers talk about, it can let me do this and I can create this.
50 page ebook in 10 seconds. Well, what we don't realize is that consumers of content are now using these tools every bit as much as we are, meaning they take that 50 page ebook and say, give me the five salient points from this ebook. And so all of a sudden, we're rushing to create all this amazing content or what we see as amazing volume of content. And the consumer is just basically saying, nope, I'm going to use these tools to get what I need out of it. And so that lesson,
really ought to inform how somebody is employing any tool, but certainly AI. And that's why, again, I believe strategists will be more important than ever.
Nick (28:59)
Yeah, anybody, if you can have a independent thought or perspective or an opinion, because if you're not careful, if you have AI create your 50 page ebook, it may not have five salient points. It can't come up with a unique insight. What about outside of AI? Anything that you use that just, that helps you do your thing better?
John Jantsch (29:10)
Yeah, that's right. Yeah.
had a podcast for years. I interview authors primarily and I use a lot of tools to get kind of the quick and dirty on books, the same idea so that I can, in some cases assess whether or not this is a book that I really wanna spend time on. I mean, I get.
Publishers send me books every week and there's no way for me to get through them. So I use a lot of, a lot of the summary, you know, kind of tools, same with newsfeeds. You know, I really kind of design, you know, what I read and consume from a podcast standpoint, you know, pretty selectively, so that it's, and, you know, sometimes you could be too selective and you start just, you know, the echo chamber, kind of a approach, but, so I do also like to,
Nick (30:05)
Yeah.
John Jantsch (30:09)
I, you know, in terms of my own personal reading, it's pretty eclectic. I, you know, I've read several thousand parts of several thousand business or marketing books, I suspect, at this point. And so now I really enjoy getting into books that are very off topic because I actually, I actually find that in many cases, I don't know, architecture.
Like there's some concepts in architecture that apply so much to business that, you know, but nobody's talking about them, you know, in the context of business. And so I find those to be great places to, to find some, some kind of innovative ideas.
Nick (30:46)
Yeah, I totally agree. Things like that help you think differently, right? And I mean, if it sharpens your mind, like it's going to make you better at solving the complexity and the uncertainty and the madness that is figuring out your business. I think it makes you better at everything.
John Jantsch (30:50)
That's right.
Absolutely.
Nick (31:05)
Is there, so who else right now in the world are you paying attention to business -wise, entrepreneurship, marketing?
John Jantsch (31:08)
you
You know, I am and I've done this a couple of times over my.
course of my career. There's a lot of people that, you know, a lot of people associate, they've been around a long time. A lot of people associate with the kind of old school internet marketer hype. You know, folks you think about the Frank Kearns, the Jay Abrahams, the Alex Hermosy now is one that's cropped up there, Ryan Dice. These guys have been around a long time. And, you know, it's really easy to dismiss them as, I mean, they all sell a ton of stuff.
It's really easy to dismiss them as kind of the hype machines. I mean, they've all got their AI product out there already. I learn a lot from paying attention to what they do. I don't mimic it or copy it, but there's a seed of truth in how they market. I dislike the way they market. I dislike the way that they prey on people's fears to get their money.
And in many cases, unfortunately, don't really deliver what's promised, but there's a seed of truth in what they understand about the psychology of marketing. And so I never let those people, I'm always paying attention to what they're doing.
Nick (32:29)
Yeah. So it's interesting the way that you phrase that. I think I like, I came up in that world too, and it can be very cringy, but if you shut it down, you're missing out on a lot to be learned. And what I'm always trying to figure out whenever I see what they do, it's like, I feel like they bottom feed a lot. And I feel like, what can I take from what they're doing?
John Jantsch (32:40)
Yeah. Yep.
Yeah, yeah.
Nick (32:54)
and apply it and not bottom feed, right? How can you go after people without going after fears and, and it.
John Jantsch (32:56)
Yep. Yep.
Yeah. They also, in a lot of cases, I mean, they've also, they've also invest a lot of money in advertising. and consequently, you know, you don't, you don't hang around very long investing a lot of money in advertising. If you're not testing and measuring and figuring out what works. And so, you know, a lot of times, I mean, what works today will not work tomorrow, but a lot of times they are at the forefront of like.
what is working today. And so just paying attention to what they're doing in some cases. Like I said, I don't mimic it. Some of it turns your stomach. But like I said, there's things to be learned from the fact that they are testing so much.
Nick (33:45)
Yeah. And they're all, they're communicating, they're talking to other people like them. They're in mastermind groups. Like that's how they stay out in front so fast. and they're probably, they're pretty protective of what they're doing that is working and what they're revealing that they're not doing.
John Jantsch (33:50)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Nick (34:04)
Man, this is great. I really appreciate you doing
Have a good afternoon.
John Jantsch (34:06)
Yep. All right, take
Nick Berry is an accomplished entrepreneur and CEO, whose track record includes founding and leading numerous companies since 2002.
He is also a mentor and coach to other entrepreneurs and business owners who are looking for a trusted (and proven) advisor.
Among peers, colleagues, staff, and clients, Nick has been referred to as both 'The Business Guy' as well as 'The Anti-Guru', due to his pragmatic approach and principled leadership.
He shares his insights and lessons learned, along with those of his expert guests,
on his podcast, 'The Business Owner's Journey'.
