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In this special '12 Days of Business' edition of The Business Owner’s Journey, host Nick Berry sits down with Sara Nay, CEO of Duct Tape Marketing, to discuss critical challenges business owners face, including recognizing and addressing burnout, the mindset for sustainable growth, and the art of delegation. Sara shares her personal journey and insights into navigating the highs and lows of entrepreneurship, overcoming limiting beliefs, and achieving mental toughness in business.
Burnout can creep up on even the most seasoned business owners. Sara Nay shares her personal experience, identifying disproportionate emotional reactions, overwhelming stress, and feeling spread too thin as key signs of burnout. She emphasizes the importance of self-reflection and recognizing the need for change, highlighting her pivotal moment of clarity when balancing work and family life.
Quote: “You’re not going to win an award if you crash and burn. That’s not noble. It’s important to find a way to recharge and avoid burnout.”
Delegation can be one of the hardest skills for entrepreneurs to develop, often tied to a fear of losing control. Sara explains how shifting her perspective allowed her to delegate effectively, enabling her team to thrive while she focused on her strengths. She describes how identifying roles that aligned with her passions helped her prevent burnout and improve overall team performance.
Quote: “One of the biggest wins I’ve experienced is delegating to someone who ends up doing the job better than I could have.”
Mindset is a cornerstone of entrepreneurial success. Sara discusses common limiting beliefs like fear of failure, resistance to public speaking, and reluctance to delegate. She offers practical advice on reframing these beliefs into growth opportunities, emphasizing the importance of embracing challenges as learning experiences.
Quote: “If stuff feels hard today, that’s normal. It will get easier if you’re doing the right thing.”
This episode is part of the 12 Days of Business mini-series.
Sara Nay also appeared in a previous episode of The Business Owner's Journey: Sara Nay: Continuous Learning & Growth at Duct Tape Marketing
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The Business Owner's Journey Podcast host: Nick Berry
Production Company: FCG
Nick Berry (00:00)
The Business Owner's Journey. I'm Nick Berry and I've got real business owners telling their real stories, sharing their real lessons and strategies so you don't have to figure it all out on your
Nick Berry (00:12)
In this episode of the 12 days of business, I've got Sara Nay. Sara is the new CEO of Duct Tape Marketing.
John Jantz, who was the CEO, has now moved to the Chief Innovation Officer, and Sara formerly was the COO and has now stepped into the CEO role with Duct Tape, and that was just announced like a week ago. So congratulations to both of them.
She's going to do a fantastic job. So Sara and I had a conversation for the podcast a couple of months ago and talked about a variety of things, but there are couple of topics that we got into that I feel like are really applicable.
for this time of year. This is the time of year where most business owners are at least talking about the need to reflect, to recharge, and doing their planning, like getting the battery ready to go for next year. Now, it doesn't always work out that way, but we should be doing those things. so Sara and I, in our conversation, a couple of things that we talked about, number one was burnout.
recognizing and addressing burnout, how to look for the signs. and she shares in this episode, the signs that she recognized in herself when she went through burnout.
I wrote an article a few weeks ago about my own experience going through burnout. And one of the big signs for me was how disproportionate my reactions were to some things. There would be like small things that would occur and my response sometimes would just be like all over the place. And that wasn't me. that's when it kind of hit home, like something's going on here. But you need to know how to look for the signs.
You need to find ways to recharge or find a new path. And Sara talks about that crossroads that she was at in her experience. Just remember, you're not going to win an award if you crash and burn. That's not noble. It's not an act of valor. So it's important that you find a way to recharge and avoid the burnout. doesn't have to be something that you go through.
put the time and energy and the thought into prevention and taking care of yourself. So that tied into the second thing that that Sara and I discussed, and it was the challenges and benefits that come along with delegation. you know, entrepreneurs are the questions that rumble around in your head. And sometimes it happens so fast, you don't even realize it, but it's like, can I delegate? Should I delegate? What do I delegate? How do I delegate?
A lot of the problem comes back to like, there's this sense of control that we feel like we need to have, But one of the things Sara and I talk about very briefly in this conversation is like, you're not losing control. And if you think about it like that, like you really shouldn't, you're not supposed to have that control over the things that need to be delegated.
she has some great perspective on that. And then sprinkled throughout the entire conversation, you'll hear us talking about mindset, limiting beliefs. It's the things that we tell ourselves to justify the overworking, not delegating, clinging to things. And so the more aware that you can become of those habits, those patterns, the more you can start to like release their hold on you and make some of these things happen.
a little easier. Some of the things like delegation that theoretically could be pretty simple as an act, help you get through that mental barrier that's preventing it. You have to remember, you've got important things to do running your business. Being a taskmaster is not one of those important things. Being someone who refuses to delegate is not the most important
element or aspect of your role there. And you can't do the most important part of your job if your circuits are fried. So you kind of have to look at it like the, you have to put your oxygen mask on before you can take care of somebody else's. Like if we lose you because you were, you know, for whatever reason, too stubborn, uninformed, unaware, it doesn't really matter what the reason is. If we lose you due to just running you in the ground.
ultimately it only ends one way. So you, we, I'm in this too, have to take care of ourselves. And Sara shares some great perspective on that here in this conversation. Now remember.
Make sure that you're following or subscribed so you get the entire 12 days of business series. If you prefer, I can email them to you. And I'm also going to include the episode pages, the exclusive guest profiles, and the other resources that I'm only sending these things out through email. So if you want to get those, go to nickberry.info slash 12 days. That's the number 12 days. Okay. Now enjoy the show.
Nick (05:26)
So far, my podcast has kind of turned into conversations about being mentally tough, your mindset as a business owner, like, how do the good ones do it and how can I improve on it? So what's your experience been? What's your
Sara Nay (05:40)
It's such an important piece to focus on. Being an entrepreneur or business owner is not easy. I work with a lot of people through our certification program that are just getting started and it's challenging, but it's really rewarding as well. But you have to have a tough mental mindset, I think, to get through that. So a few of the things that I've worked on over the years is there's a lot of highs and lows in business.
always and John's always preached that to me over the years as well. Like things are going to be challenging, but there's also really great times. And so I think you have to be mentally tough to get through those lows and understand that things will turn around in most cases. That's been one piece. An area that I see a lot of people struggle with as well as like getting close to burnout. And because it is, it's a lot. And myself, I was close to burnout, I would say seven or so years ago.
And I took a step back. remember like we have trails behind my house and I remember going on a hike and I remember coming down and thinking like, why am I burnt out? Like, am I just not in the right industry? Am I not in the right role? Do I not like what we're doing anymore? Do I have too much on my plate? Am I spread too thin? There was just like all these possible factors I think that could lead to burnout. And what I realized in my specific situation was I was spread too thin and not in the right role.
So I had a conversation with John about that. And so that's back when I was doing all of our client work. And so I was managing all of our client engagements and all of our implementation team. And so it was just like too many people for me and I was spread too thin. And so over time, like after I made that realization, we had the conversation of where are your strengths and what should you be doing? And that's when I started to shift into more of the COO role because
I really love training and educating and managing and teaching. Like those are some of the things that I love to do. and not necessarily like the marketing side of things, doesn't necessarily light me up more of the operations and team management side of things. So I've shifted and grown into this role and then we've hired people to run client engagements. and so we basically replaced me out of that role. And so it did just come down to like deep thinking
Like I was doing too many roles and not the right ones. And so then I was able to bring in people, delegate, and then step into where I think my strengths truly are.
Nick (08:00)
Yeah. Do you happen to remember whenever you kind of got to that place, like before you went on that hike, what were some of the symptoms? Like what, was telling you like this something ain't right
Sara Nay (08:12)
Yeah, just stress. I mean, it was a big piece and just like not wanting to do it anymore. I do remember like one specific moment. I was holding my daughter who was a newborn at the time and she was sick and she was home and she was on my chest and I was like behind holding her like on my phone talking to a client about like a social media color for one of their posts and just like debating back and forth and I'm
I can't even be here and like be present for my daughter right now when she's a newborn and obviously needs me. And so that was a big like wake up moment that I needed to make a change and make a
Nick (08:48)
Man, yeah, that's a, if it involves the kids, it's like a kind of a gut punch,
Sara Nay (08:55)
Yeah, and just a reminder of like, why am I doing what I'm doing? I'm doing like, I'm working really hard and I love what I do to be able to support my family and be there for them and have that flexibility to be there for them. I think that's the one of the great things about, you know, working from home and being a bit of an entrepreneur mindset is you have that flexibility to be there for your kids in a lot of cases when you need to
Nick (09:16)
what are you seeing out of the business owners that you guys are working with?
How does it manifest in the conversations that you have And how do you help them navigate their way through it? Because that's not really your
Sara Nay (09:27)
Yeah, it's not really my job, but I've gotten into it more and more just because there's such a need for it. think I actually took a eight month long mindset course because I'm interested in it all. But I realized there's a huge need in it, especially for people just getting started. like a few things, a few areas that I see people really struggling like from a mindset standpoint is this topic of delegation. Like it's hard when you're just getting started. Like it's easy to feel like you should just hold on to everything.
And it's hard to start delegating because you're losing control, you're letting go. You don't have your hands into everything. And also from a financial perspective, when you're just getting started, it's harder to bring people in. So it's a bit of a risk in that sense. And so I think the whole delegation piece is a big thing. But I'm in the mindset of like, if someone can get me like 80 % there by delegating it, that's a huge win. In my mind, and I will say like
biggest wins I've experienced over the years is like when you delegate to someone else and they end up doing it better than you. I think that's like such a huge win or better than you could have done it. So that's where I think a lot of people struggle early on is like, can I delegate? Should I delegate? What should I delegate? I fear of letting go is a big piece. Another mindset piece as well is I think a lot of people struggle with like labels as a topic. And so people have a lot of like negative labels that they put on themselves.
or other people put on them that aren't necessarily true. And so I'm bad at sales or I'm not a great leader or I'm bad at public speaking or whatever it might be. And so I think it's really important to think about those different labels that you're telling yourself and really analyze like, those true or can you replace them with something a lot more positive? And so one of the things I struggled with early on is and still get somewhat nervous today is like the topic of public speaking.
And I would just always be like, I'm too nervous to speak or I'm not good at it or I'll stumble over my words or, know, like those are like the things that I would tell myself leading up to it. But now I've adopted the mindset of like, no, like you're, it's normal to be nervous when you're getting up on stage for the first time. Like people have those energy or those feelings inside of them, but like go out there and provide value and connect with people and you'll learn every single
And so it's a bit of a shift in like, I'm not good at it too. I'm still getting better at it every single time I do it. And that's helped. Another area on mindset too, another piece that we talk a lot or I talk a lot about is like the, relationship to failure and rejection. And so some people like don't want to put themselves out there because they're afraid that they're fail or be rejected, which might happen. But I think if you can think about failure or rejection as an opportunity to grow and learn.
So maybe you didn't get an opportunity or the speaking thing didn't go as well as you had hoped. What can you learn from that to then do better next time? And so those are some of the key areas that I see a lot of people struggling with and needing to focus on in the entrepreneurship space.
Nick (12:31)
Yeah. Yep. And I think, you know, what I'm hearing you talk about there is a lot of the shift from a fixed mindset to an open or growth mindset where it's like, you might not be at this thing right now, but that's right now, that's a temporary state, right? It's where you're not as good as you want to be, right? It's all, it's a process and a journey, not a permanent state.
Sara Nay (12:58)
Yeah, yeah. Another example, like when people start recording videos for the first time, like if they're a business owner, we're like, record a video, they put on your homepage. Like we see this all the time when we're building websites with people. They're like, I can't record a video. Like that's terrifying. I'll be terrible and I'll stumble over my words. And it's like, you probably will stumble and it will be really, really, really hard for your first one. But every single time you do it, it's going to get easier and easier and easier. And I think that's important to keep in mind.
I launched a podcast a while ago, I'm not doing it anymore. And I remember like the first introduction I did for someone I was like, so nervous and I like stumbled over it. And if like I went back and listened to that now I'd be like, my goodness. But like by the time I did a handful of episodes in 20 and 30 and 40 and 50, like it was just easy and it rolled off my tongue and I was never nervous and it was just a conversation. And so I just think that's an important thing. Like if stuff feels really hard today, that's normal and it should get easier if you're doing the right thing.
Nick (13:55)
Yep. And, and I think your perspective is going to evolve a lot too. Like you have this thing in your mind. So going back to your initial podcast introduction that you said, like most people that would listen to it aren't, don't care about all the little things that you're finding wrong with it. They do not care. It's kind of like the outfit that you're wearing or whatever else that you're worried about that you're like, I cannot, I got to make sure that this picture is
Sara Nay (14:11)
Yeah, exactly.
Nick (14:22)
Most people don't really care as much as you do. So you figure that out and then you can look back at things and be like, well, it wasn't very good. It was really good for me, like being my first one. But most of the things that I was worried about never mattered. What mattered was that I got in there, got the first step taken. I knew what I was trying to work on and I kept getting better at that thing. And I mean, that's kind of brings our conversation full circle
Sara Nay (14:47)
Yep, absolutely.
Nick (14:51)
like how hard it is as a business owner, that's really what you have to do, right? Because as a business owner, you're playing this game of who can handle the uncertainty and the complexity the best, because nobody knows who has what card, like all you know is like the ones that are in your hand. Maybe there are some that are out on the table and you've got to do the best you can do with it. And sometimes it's going to feel like you got
And sometimes it's going to feel like you can do no wrong. And neither one of those are usually true, but you have to be able to get like, just use it as an opportunity to try to do a little bit better next
Sara Nay (15:32)
Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you as you were saying, like as a business owner, like a lot of your responsibility is understanding like what to do next for your business and then actually making a move towards that. And so you might not always pick the best path, but understanding like where you're trying to go and what you're trying to work towards is really important. But as we're talking about, like you might stumble along the way, but you at least have to have a path to work towards and then start making those small steps every day to be working towards it. And so that's where
When we're doing our planning, we're thinking about like the one year and three year goals and we're thinking about bigger picture, but then we're also breaking it down and saying, okay, what small steps do we need to do this quarter to start moving in that right direction?
Nick Berry is an accomplished entrepreneur and CEO, whose track record includes founding and leading numerous companies since 2002.
He is also a mentor and coach to other entrepreneurs and business owners who are looking for a trusted (and proven) advisor.
Among peers, colleagues, staff, and clients, Nick has been referred to as both 'The Business Guy' as well as 'The Anti-Guru', due to his pragmatic approach and principled leadership.
He shares his insights and lessons learned, along with those of his expert guests,
on his podcast, 'The Business Owner's Journey'.
