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In this episode of "The Business Owner’s Journey," host Nick Berry talks to Scott Fay, CEO and Co-Owner of the TCI-Rood Organization.
Scott Fay may be best known as the CEO and Co-Owner of the TCI-Rood Organization. Or, it's possible you've heard John Maxwell refer to him as "the father of the John Maxwell Team".
Scott shares his journey of acquiring and transforming seventeen failing landscape and irrigation companies into industry leaders, while also leading a division of John Maxwell's organization and certifying 40,000+ leaders around the world..
Discover his unique formula for success, insights on leadership, and the importance of staying in your strength zone.
Scott Fay discusses his proven strategy for acquiring and revitalizing failing businesses. His approach involves identifying undervalued assets, leveraging existing strengths, and staying within his "strength zone" of landscaping and irrigation. Fay emphasizes the importance of buying assets at fair market value while avoiding liabilities, a method that has successfully worked for him seventeen times.
Scott highlights the significance of self-awareness in business leadership. He shares how discovering his ability to "re-create" rather than create from scratch has been pivotal in his success. By focusing on what he excels at and enjoys, Fay has been able to make substantial improvements to existing structures and systems.
A major theme in Scott’s journey is the value of relationships. From his partnership with John Maxwell to his leadership style at TCI-Rood, Fay underscores that treating people well and building genuine relationships is crucial. He shares how this principle has not only fostered loyalty but has also opened up numerous opportunities.
Scott and Nick discuss the elements that create a strong company culture. Fay points out that culture is built on language, symbols, and example. He gives practical examples from his own company, illustrating how consistent messaging and behaviors from leadership can shape and maintain a positive organizational culture.
Scott explains his approach to problem-solving, emphasizing that every problem comes with an opportunity. He encourages business owners to view challenges as design issues that can be fixed by looking upstream. By changing the design, rather than just addressing the symptoms, long-term solutions can be achieved.
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The Business Owner's Journey Podcast host: Nick Berry
Production Company: FCG
Nick (00:00)
you have rolled up 17 distressed companies and that's what is TCI Rood now. Okay. So.
Scott Fay (00:07)
That's correct.
Nick (00:09)
and TCI Rood has been around for a while and is not a small company. And so there seems to be like a formula there. Like you've got an angle. So let's start there. Can you give me a little bit of a backstory on how that all came together? And then like, all right, what's the recipe here? How do you go out and do that and do it so well?
Scott Fay (00:15)
There is there is I do. Okay.
Sure. yes, I have looking back now, it's been 17 companies. The key here, most of them were distressed. It's not all of them. And I say it's the key, Nick, because as it turns out, I'm a better re -creator than a creator. I...
I say this often, I don't know if somebody handed me a really good company, I don't know that I could make a difference. I'm not gifted in that way to take something that's really great and make it greater, but I can fix a broken one. And so there's two parts, there's multiple parts. You said there must be a strategy and a plan, there is. First of all, I think what I'd love to share, it may sound like a rabbit hole at first, but...
Nick (01:04)
You just don't break it.
Scott Fay (01:23)
Everyone listening or watching this, there's lots of different tests you can take, personality tests and psychological tests, all these tests that are good. And I subscribed, I have over on my right here in the top shelf over here, from my top five strengths, strength finders. And I think that's a great thing to know. And I know my top five strengths. And we do the PI and we do Myers -Briggs and all these things are great helpful tools.
I believe in them. I did a simple one actually in my church. And it was to find out what your gifting is. And it asked this simple question that you would, the simple thing activity that you would make a list of all your successes and make a list of all your disappointments or what we call failures or disappointments. And then look for the commonality in your.
in the things that you did that were strong, that turned out well, and look for the commonality in the things that turned out to be a flop or not so good. And when I did this many, many years ago, I found out it just jumped off the page. When I start with something blank and build something from scratch, it just started.
Nick (02:46)
I know what that means.
Scott Fay (02:47)
And you know what's pathetic is I'm a landscaper. You should be able to call me up and you've built your house and now it's just dirt and rubble and stone and say, now what do I do with this? And I would, I would be, I, listen, I have some ideas, but not nothing great. I have nothing great there. But if you, if you say, look at, we went to a landscape architect and this is what we've got. Here's the plant list and I would look at it and this is true to form for me. I would say, well, that's good. But now that we're looking at the site,
That looks good on paper, but if we just tweak it and tune it, I think you're going to be happier. And by the way, I would say to you and your wife, I'd say, what do you want to do in this space? Because this looks great, but now with your daughter and the things that you do, activities might be different. If you are in your golden years, you might want a croquet court, but with a young daughter, you might want something different, right? So my point is I'm a better...
I'm a better recreator. And so when I learned that, I am entrepreneurial. And so every day I have a different idea of something I'd like to start. But I have enough self -awareness to know, if you want to be in that business, why don't you find somebody that's doing it and you up -level it? Because you've got some ideas. I'm talking to myself right now. I've got some ideas that I think would be really different in that genre. But let me find one that's broken and fixed. OK, that's one thing. The other thing is once I got started,
I stayed in my strength zone because I've been chasing a lawnmower since I was 12. I'm addicted to it. I mean, I really am. I love it. I love everything about what we do in landscape. And as a kid, the first place I did was my mom and dad's house. And I have three younger sisters and I instantly made it like a rule. You can't play on the front yard. We got to play in the back because we're tearing up the grass out front.
I'm 12 years old, but I'm like, I took over the front yard and landscaped it and it made a big difference and I loved it. So when you take the things that you love along with what you love to have, what you love to do, what you love to, you put all that together, it helps you get focused. And that's how I really got started. I was working for another landscape company at, it was Rude Landscape back in the day.
And I had different experiences, but I had to be at Rood Landscape. I was a sales manager for one of their departments. And a friend called me and said he had an irrigation company that was going to go bankrupt if he didn't come move back to the area and salvage it. And he said, if I could, if I would take over the debt, I could just have the company. And it was a small company, three technicians, great reputation, but it was falling apart. It was in serious, and I could tell you all the details, but.
It was a gory mess. But I was just hungry and desperate enough, I really wanted to get back in business for myself. So I jumped in, and man, I started to tighten up here, tighten up there, and push here with my strengths. And man, it started to happen. And somebody else had one that was falling apart. Said, man, can you just give me something? So I came up with a formula that I would buy what I called wholesale. And it would be an asset purchase.
I say, you know, if you talk to a broker, they're going to tell you it's worth this or that or a multiple of EBITDA or multiple of gross revenue. Here's my plan. If you want to be done, we'll make a list of all the assets, fair market value. I'll buy the wastepaper basket and the stapler. I'll buy it all, but I'm only going to pay you for a fair market value for its current price. And that will save. Otherwise, you're just going to have to sell this at an auction or have a yard sale or something.
And for that, I'm going to write you a check one time and I want you to include the customer list, but I don't want any of your liabilities. I don't want any of that. I just, it's an asset purchase. Well, that has worked 17 times where I've taken over a mess. The magic is when you stay in your lane, you have contacts. And so what looked like brilliance, I'm not a brilliant guy. The longer we talk, you're going to subpoena us. Okay, this is over.
We're not going to talk anymore. I'm a simple guy. And so what I could do is then bring this company into my space. I was already back then I was renting. I'm already renting the facility. I didn't need and it was big enough I could expand. So I cut off the rent of that struggling business. I already had the beginnings of a leadership team. So I got rid of the expensive people for that business. And as we grew, we were able to.
plug it into what we already had and get a better margin on the same revenue that they had because they didn't have the cost. The other magical thing that began to happen is a small company says no almost as many times as they say yes. Something's too far, too big, too complicated outside of their scope. And the more we grew, the more we, no, we do that too. yeah, we go there too. And we would say yes. So,
For every $100 ,000 worth of revenue a distressed company was taking in, we could almost instantly turn that to $150 ,000 or $200 ,000 worth of revenue because it fit in our wheelhouse or we had the right people or we had the right skill set. And when you do that, the old axiom that says after 20 years of hard work, you can become an overnight success, that worked for us.
Nick (08:20)
Yeah.
Yeah, you built 20 years, you built a giant flywheel. Yeah, I mean, and like, you know, all jokes aside, the brilliance is the simplicity, right? Like that's, and you being able to recognize that the formula and stick with it because knowing what to do is one thing, having the discipline and the awareness to like stay with it, stay on course is another.
Scott Fay (08:33)
Yes, yes, exactly right.
Yes, it really is.
Yes.
It's really true. And while I say, and I mean, we said yes to things that the other folks couldn't, we also have progressively gotten better and better at saying no, because we do have a very defined, and you live in this area, so you know, when we say we work on legacy estate homes, that's a very specific market, especially in this area, right? And so,
Nick (09:20)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Scott Fay (09:23)
We stay in that area with landscape irrigation. We have another descriptive that we talk about, but it's we know what we can do and what we should do and the rest we say no to. So I don't want to leave the impression that we instantly just said yes to everything because there's a lot of things that come up. We don't build swimming pools. That's not in our area. And there's a list of things we don't do.
Nick (09:47)
you don't give that impression. You give the impression that you're really clear on like your lane, you're in the segments that are direct toward and yeah, and that's where you go. I mean, I think that's awesome. And that's really, that's probably the only way that a formula like that works very well, right?
Scott Fay (09:51)
Yes, 100%.
Yes,
Yes. I mean, if you look in the fast food, Chick -fil -A is the leader in fast food by many measures. And yet they only work six out of seven days a week. But they're not open seven days a week, and yet they do more volume in six days than most of their competitors. That's it. That's it.
Nick (10:28)
only offering chicken and only offering like how many different options on the menu.
Scott Fay (10:33)
That's it. And they stay in that lane. Now I've been to their headquarters. They are constantly doing R &D.
Scott Fay (10:40)
In the middle of their warehouse, they have a restaurant and every component, the deep fryer and the grill and the cast register and the soda machine, everything's on wheels. It's modular and they're moving it around. It's a working restaurant. The employees eat there, guests eat there. You can ride a bicycle through their drive -through. And what I'm saying is, as perfected and simple, five days a week, they're doing R &D on how to make it better.
Pretty impressive. That's right.
Nick (11:10)
Yeah, that's what it takes. That's why they're that way, right? interesting so far. I've known you for a little while, but you're you're turning into that friend that is like every time I ask a question, I find out there's another whole interesting chapter to you that I'm like what?
And everybody has that friend and it's one of the things that I figured out pretty quickly is that you're that self -improvement like the learner, you know, we we about this Vistage So you mentioned the three or four, the test, the PI and Myers -Briggs and all that stuff. And I'm a fan of those things too.
You so, so let's move the, the John Maxwell, that, that chapter. Some, tell me how you found your way into that world. And, and I think this is an exact quote, but John Maxwell called you the father of the John Maxwell team.
Scott Fay (12:07)
He did and he does, yes. It's an incredible honor.
Nick (12:10)
Okay, yeah, so that's not a little thing. Yeah, so how did that all unfold?
Scott Fay (12:13)
By the way, I don't know how you found that out because I don't know where that, but he does. He publicly says that and I was amazed. So you definitely do your background work before you bring somebody out here.
Nick (12:31)
Yeah, thanks. I think I got that. I think that's on Twitter.
Scott Fay (12:37)
Is it?
Nick (12:38)
So that means it's forever.
Scott Fay (12:39)
Yeah. Well, so here, you know, everything that we talk about, I want to point to a principle because things change. I mean, our world is changing all the time, Nick. And one of the things that I learned early, early on is if you'll learn the principle, then whether there's COVID, whether there's an economic downturn, whether somebody you like is in the White House or somebody you don't like is in the White House, it doesn't matter.
you take what's in front of you and you do the best you can. And the only way that works is if you come to understand principle. And early on, in fact, that was the very first time I heard John Maxwell on an audio cassette. Abraham Lincoln was president at the time, and this was like a lifetime ago.
Scott Fay (13:30)
So I'm listening to my very first John Maxwell cassette tape. And he says if, first of all, he was dispelling the myth of the self -made man. That's a phrase that people have come to use. And he says there is no such thing as a self -made man. Because anybody that's done anything great has done it with a team and they've done it with other people. And when you identify people that have made a contribution in your life,
and you're standing on their shoulders, the importance of honoring them. And he planted a seed in my mind that by the time I listened to him the first time on a tape, I'd already read like three of his books and he was already having a profound influence on my thinking. And I wanna talk about thinking in a minute if we have time, the importance of it. So he planted this seed that you honor the folks. And I said, someday there's gonna come an opportunity.
where I can honor John Maxwell for what he has meant to me. And many years later, we are right here in Hope Sound up at Loblolly Golf Club. And he was doing an event as a charitable contribution to the Hope Sound Bible College right here in town. And if you wrote a $5 ,000 check to the school, you could come to this meeting at Loblolly, this luncheon with John Maxwell with 30 people, 29 other people, and he would teach two lessons and have lunch with you.
if you wrote a 5 ,000, and this was early on in my career, and $5 ,000 was a lot of money for me. But I really wanted to. And that morning at Loblolly, in that session, the first session before we had the first break, he mentioned, I just bought a house here in Jupiter. I'm glad to be local. Well, that was news to me. I didn't know we had a house here. And I was the first guy in line at the first break.
and I put my business card under his nose and I said, John, or Dr. Maxwell is what I called him at the time. You don't know me, but you've made a profound influence on my life. I want to take care of your landscape the rest of your life. I don't say this to impress you, but to impress upon you, I can do it because your home is the kind of place we take care of. I hope you'll call me. And then I got out of line because there's 29 other people. I couldn't have a conversation. I came back to the building I'm in right now as I'm talking to you in my office here. I'm out back in the warehouse and on the intercom,
the front said, John Maxwell's on line three. Now I'm pretty sure it's one of my friends pranking me because my friends knew I was going and I was all gaga gaga about, you know, that. And I pick up the phone and it's John. He said, this is John. He's got that very unique, baritone voice. And I said, he said, if you're interested, you come down right now because I'm in town. My wife is unhappy with our service. And I'm trying to give you this condensed.
We became friends and he, I wanted to do his landscape for free. I really meant it. And we were going back and forth and he said to me, if you're really serious about this, I mentor 10 people at a time. I have an opening. And if you want, I'll mentor you. And I'm like, well, let me think about.
Nick (16:46)
I'll get back to you, John.
Scott Fay (16:48)
Yeah, in 10 seconds. And I said yes. And so we began a relationship. The reason I think this is important sharing is that, Nick, so much of the successes or wins in my life have come through relationships. And if we can get past the idea, if you'll treat people important, then good things will happen.
if a higher level of awareness is understand that people really are important. If you can really value people genuinely, not for the sake of manipulation, not for the sake of getting something, but you can really value great things will happen. And the day came when I, again, we've used a lot of time. The day came when I had an opportunity to say, John, you need to meet a friend of mine because we have helped other thought leaders. I had another business at the time and.
We help thought leaders take their message and license it. And he tells the story today that many other people had approached him about that, but they all had an agenda when they met him. And I was in quotations, just his landscaper. And he trusted me. And we put together today, over 50 ,000 people have gone through that program and have been certified in 160 countries around the world. I've traveled around the world with him.
It's been an amazing, it's just, it's been an amazing, in 2016 I resigned from the company, but we remain great friends. I still take care of his home to this day. And I'm back in Hope Sound. I loved that season. It was a wonderful five years, but I'm back really doing what I love to do.
Nick (18:32)
Yeah. And so the resignation due to health, am I right? Okay. And, but I think it also, you know, it fits the narrative with you in that, like, you're where you want to be in that lane, in that sweet spot, right? That there's the plug for the book and it's not an accident, right? I mean, it may not have been through a circumstance that you,
Scott Fay (18:39)
That's right.
Yes, yes, I'm living my message. I really am. Right. Very intentional.
Right, that's right. That's right.
Nick (19:02)
would have designed like that, not all of it, but it's not an accident that you're doing the things that you're doing and that you feel about it the way that you feel about it. I think, yeah, that's awesome. It's a testament to the awareness, the formula and the discipline that you have for it. Yeah. So the book, and I'm maybe just a third of the way through it, something,
Scott Fay (19:20)
Thank you. Thank you. I really appreciate that.
Nick (19:33)
I read one quote yesterday that I was like, that's one that hits between the eyes and it's not for everybody. It is me finding this.
Your life is getting the exact results it's designed to get.
That's, there are times where that may be exactly what we want to hear. And then there are a lot of other times where it is not what we want to hear, but that really landed with me.
Scott Fay (20:04)
Good, good, good. Another way to say that same thing, and maybe I say it right there, I don't remember, but is our reality is a result of our best thinking. It's hard, it's a truth. So whether we like it or not, it's a truth. And when we accept it as a truth, we say, yeah, but, and we got a whole list of yeah, but, yeah, but where I was born, you ought to see the little town I grew up.
We had one blinking light. That's the only thing that functioned in the town. Everything else was dysfunctional. It was a tiny little town. Yeah, but my parents were this or I did or yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but and I can point for every yeah, but you have let me take it.
Scott Fay (20:49)
guy with no arms and no legs? Yes. Because of John, I've got to spend time with Nick. If anybody has an excuse, has a yabbit, he doesn't have any limbs. He's a torso. And he says this, I don't say this, no pun intended, he says, I have a flipper. He has an appendage that resembles a foot at the bottom of his torso. He has some toes. He can type 42 words a minute with this.
Nick (20:51)
Yes, yeah, yeah.
Scott Fay (21:17)
He has no arms, no legs. And he can swim and he speaks and he can write. So, the reality is the result of our best thinking. Let me give you this. Do you know that only 1 % of our population actually thinks? And 2 % of our population think they think. And 93 % of our population would rather die than think.
Because thinking requires new thoughts. It requires you, first of all, to admit, maybe I'm wrong about this. Because the only way you can change your thinking is you have to be willing to unlearn what you already know. If you aren't willing to unlearn it, you can't learn something new. And a lot of people spend time contemplating when all they're doing is remembering and rehearsing what's been said. And if you can say, I don't like my reality, they're...
and my reality is based on my thoughts, then I'm going to have to change my thinking. And it takes a lot of intellectual honesty to say, okay, maybe I'm wrong about something. And if I'll change my thinking, I can change. It goes back to the idea of when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change. That's because of a mindset. And so all of that is...
Nick (22:42)
Yeah.
Scott Fay (22:46)
where that quote comes from. That all is based. If you don't like your reality, there's things you can change.
Nick (22:54)
Yeah. So I'm a big believer in your sense of agency and like that you have control over the direction that it's going to go. And, yeah, I think that's probably why a lot of the things that, that I've heard you say have kind of stuck with me and I'm like, okay, this is a guy that I can talk to, that sense of responsibility and accountability and agency. And, and it's not just, you know, over the moon positivity.
Scott Fay (23:02)
Yes.
No, no. Right. Right.
Nick (23:22)
Right. It's there's reality to it. It doesn't mean it's going to be easy, but you don't just have to sit there and wait to get steamrolled by the world. I think I was having a conversation yesterday. So the yeah, but thing you hear it all the time. And that's kind of my signal to myself when I'm, when I hear that I'm like, okay, you're doing it. And the amount of energy. So I'll do it a lot when I'm with ID 80.
Scott Fay (23:30)
No. No.
Yeah. Yes.
Nick (23:51)
And then I'm like, well, but, well, but, well, but, and the amount of energy that gets put into coming up with why not. If you would just take some of that and turn it into like, how could we help me like give me and given that turn that phrase, like how could I was one of the, it's probably one of the most valuable tools that somebody ever handed to me. And I was like, I'm an adult and I'm having to be told, just ask yourself this.
Scott Fay (24:03)
Yes. Yes.
Nick (24:21)
but it opens up a whole new world and all of that energy that you don't burn on coming up with reasons why it won't work. You can then reinvest into reasons why, how it might. It's insane and it feels so much different. It's good for your brain.
Scott Fay (24:32)
You really can.
It does. Sometimes we have to take the jumpers or the paddles and give ourselves a big vault to get us past that. One of the examples I use often is, I don't know if you're ever back in the day when the World Trade Center, the towers were there, if you ever went to the top, you could go up to the top of one, there was an observation deck. It was breathtaking.
Nick (25:01)
Not heard it.
Scott Fay (25:04)
And I've been there a few times as a kid. And when you're all that way up and you're looking down on helicopters and airplanes flying around the city, I mean, it was a long ways in the air and those towers did have some sway to them. And in a picture, they look like they're right by each other. When you're there, there's quite a span between the two. You're a dad, I'm a dad. If you can imagine being up there, those hundreds and hundreds of feet above the ground.
And your child is in the other one and the other one is on fire. And there's a five foot walkway between with no guardrails, but a walkway going from tower to tower. I'll bet you you would cross that for your child without even thinking about it. But if your child wasn't over there, I don't think there's enough money in the world to get you to walk across a five foot wide catwalk all the way because the wind up there was fierce. If the why?
Nick (26:03)
You're right on both counts.
Scott Fay (26:04)
Yeah, right. If the why is big enough and if we're having a struggle, we got to get in touch with the why and really understand how badly we want it. And I've seen people, you've seen people do amazing things. And it's not because they had superpowers. They're really in touch with their why.
Nick (26:25)
Yeah, so how do you go about doing that? Like what's the thought process for getting centered on your work?
Scott Fay (26:36)
So we were, you know, it's often a struggle to come up with labor when you have a spurt of growth. And it was after one of the hurricanes here in Florida several years ago, 2004. And I was commuting every week back and forth. My family was in Michigan, Traverse City, Michigan. And I worked Monday and fly up there on Thursday, stay the weekend, come back on Monday, every single week, never missed.
being up there with my kids for the weekend. And so I'm in the Chicago O 'Hare Airport, and it's now a few months after the hurricanes and the early snows, and I'm looking out over the end and snow is coming down. And I get a phone call from Walmart that they had like 40 stores, 30 or 40 stores in South Florida, and they needed the irrigation put back in place. Now the power's back on.
And then the irrigation had all been ripped up from trees falling over and blah, blah. 40 stores, and I'm at that point a pretty small company. And they're saying, just time and material, just come on down and just fix it and bill us. I mean, it's what every small business like, that's a silver platter. But I'm busy. I mean, I'm busy. But I can't say no to this.
And so I'm standing there looking in the Sky Club, looking out over the tarmac and the snow is coming down and it hits me. There's landscape companies right here in Chicago. There's landscape companies in Michigan and it's snowing in Michigan. What are they doing with their people? They're not out there doing irrigation. And I called the guy that I had met, again, a relationship in Grand Rapids.
and said, hey man, I got a bunch of work in South Florida. Any chance you guys would want to crawl out of a snow bank and go to South Florida and work for a couple of months? He said in a heartbeat. They would love to have something to do. And within 24 hours, we made the arrangements to get enough people in South Florida to get all 40 of those stores done. My point is, I've heard it said, sometimes you have to go to a different place at a different pace to gain a different perspective.
There's times when you just gotta pull away. I was fortunate, you could call it lucky, I was fortunate enough to be in Chicago in a snowstorm. If I was sitting in my office in Florida, I don't know that I would have had that thought.
Nick (29:12)
Mm -hmm.
Scott Fay (29:13)
It's not magic, but it's a reminder there are times when we need to put ourselves in a different place so we can get at a different pace and gain a different perspective, and it would just help us rock our thinking. I think it's where we go, or it's who we spend time with, or it's one of the reasons I read books. Sometimes I don't have to go anywhere, but if I just read a book, in my early days, Nick, I spent more time reading heating and air conditioning magazines than I did irrigation magazines.
because HVAC was at that point further along in their sophistication in their companies. At that point in my career, in fact, people told me, you can't build a company, it doesn't scale. Irrigation doesn't scale. You can have one or two men. And when they say you can't, then I say, well, let's figure out, right? That was like saying, stick them to a dog. So I couldn't read irrigation magazines, so I went to HVAC and...
Nick (30:02)
Right. That's how agency.
Scott Fay (30:11)
they were doing things that was cutting edge and I took their stuff and say, okay, how can it, so anyways, I'm going down a rabbit hole, but that's.
Nick (30:20)
Well, but I think that's definitely material because like what you're describing, that mentality is like, that's a high sense of agency. That's they're saying it can't be done. I'm not okay with that as an answer. I'm going to find another way. And so, and again, I'm going to come back to the, like none of these things are an accident. You kind of know these are the things that spur my brain along and help me figure out the things that are unclear or murky or uncertain.
Scott Fay (30:27)
Yes.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yes.
Nick (30:49)
because that's the job, right? If you're in a business, the job is make sense of the uncertainty. And you, another thing that I read in your book that kind of ties to that, I think the way you said it was hope is not a strategy. It's one of my favorite sayings. That's my college coach used to beat that in our heads. Hope is not a method. And none of this is an accident. It just comes back to the you.
Scott Fay (31:05)
Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yeah.
Yeah. Nick, I think there's another thing that really helps with a mindset when we come up with challenges. And again, there's some principles here. It's around the word problem. And there's some things I believe about. And if someone watching this, if we can help you up level your beliefs about certain things,
Nick (31:18)
putting in the time to figure out, here are the things that work for me, and I'm gonna keep trying to do more of those things and find more of those things. And here we are.
Scott Fay (31:47)
it will change your world. Number one about a problem, because of the law of polar opposites, for every problem there has to be an opportunity. I mean, you can't have an inside unless there's an outside. You can't have an up without, it has to be a down, it's a law. So if polar opposites is a law, that means when there's a problem there has to be an opportunity. If you walk out and the tire on your car is flat,
Nick (32:06)
of them.
Scott Fay (32:18)
That's a problem for you and it's an opportunity for AAA. It's an opportunity for somebody.
Nick (32:24)
is an opportunity for you to take a different way to wherever you're going.
Scott Fay (32:27)
It's no doubt, there are a whole list of opportunities with every problem we have. So if we had that mindset to say, this looks like a problem, what can we do with it? That's a game changer. Here's another game changer that I should have said first, because this is the filter in front of that. You have to make sure what you are wrestling with really is a problem. A lot of times, we waste our time worrying about situations.
I was on a call one time and a young man called in and said, I've been playing football since I was a little kid, all the way up and then in high school I made varsity team as a freshman. I've been lettered, I can go to any college and this year, my senior year, I was in an accident and I broke my, and the problem is I broke my back and I'll never play football. That's not a problem, that's a situation. The more time you spend,
Worrying about your broken back and the fact that you it is the fact you'll never play football You have a broken back. You never play football again Now your child, what do you do with that? Right and Anytime you waste thinking that's your problem then the problem isn't the problem. The problem is that you think that's the problem
Nick (33:45)
Yeah, yeah, I like that.
Scott Fay (33:46)
Right? So if it's at the very outset, well, the problem is we have COVID. No, that's not a problem. That was a situation. When COVID hit, we could spend the next several minutes. We went into, we bought bigger trucks, four door cabs. We always had two door cabs. We bought four door cabs. We separated, we had wash stations. We said, we're not going to surrender to this. We're not going to participate. We've also said when there's a downturn in the economy, we're not going to participate.
We're going to find a way, at the end of the day, we're at least a labor company. And we changed the situation. When the power went out during hurricanes, we got a bunch of chainsaws and we started cutting up because you couldn't get to the irrigation and you couldn't power it. There was no irrigation. Like every problem. So number one, you have to understand a problem isn't a problem unless you can fix it. Make sure you're worried about a problem. Number two, with every problem comes an opportunity. Number three, every problem is a design issue.
So don't just focus on fixing that particular problem. Let's go upstream and say, why did we have the problem? Let's change the design.
Right here in Hope Sound, if you go to Anytime Fitness here in Hope Sound, you park in this parking lot and then you have to work your way through a hedge row to cross the road and go into, and the problem is people keep messing up the landscape to get to Anytime Fitness. No, the problem is there's no way to get from where you park to go. So if you wanna fix the problem, fix the design. Every problem is a design issue.
Nick (35:01)
So I think this is where.
Scott Fay (35:30)
every single one.
And when as entrepreneurs, if we can understand the power of a problem, understand it's an opportunity, and understand there's some things we shouldn't waste our time in because they're just situations, and there's other things that, yes, they are a problem, and I don't know what the opportunity is, if nothing else, there's an opportunity to up -level our system to make sure it doesn't happen again. I don't know how many times you have to trip over something before you say, you know, I think I'll get to move it.
Nick (36:03)
It's that's a funny example, considering and Kelly just interviewed me for her podcast. And one of the things that I railed about was I use an example about stepping over a rug, but it's, but it's like, basically to illustrate the same point is like, it's only going to take twice. First time I'm going to give it the benefit of the doubt twice. I'm not going to spend my life flipping your thing back over. Yeah.
Scott Fay (36:14)
Yeah.
Yes. Right. Yeah. Yeah.
Now with the IQ test. Yes, yes.
Nick (36:30)
So I like that design element that you're talking about though, using that lens. Do you think that, is that something that you learned from, you took from your landscaping and have applied it elsewhere, or is that something that was more intuitive to you that is kind of what has helped draw you to landscaping?
Scott Fay (36:53)
Very candidly, that's one thing I learned in the book, that phrase, every problem is a design issue. And I began to, here's what I do. Another one of my favorite thought leaders once said, every good thing that's ever come into your life has come to you through the form of another person. And when I hear something like that, I'm like, I don't, and I wrestle with it. And I came to believe he was absolutely right.
But I wrestled with it first. And it's so right that it's become now one of these core beliefs that I'm sharing. And I heard that every problem is a design issue. And I'm like, every problem? Every problem? And I started looking for it. And that's where that...
Nick (37:41)
You just sound like the way that you phrase your response to these things is so familiar to me. I'm like, I guess, if you don't mind me asking. Hey.
Scott Fay (37:44)
I'm sorry.
That's not a good time for you Nick. I'm sorry. Don't I'm sorry to hear you're down at that level, but that's okay.
Nick (37:57)
We are what we are, you know, we're our own special type of utensil. So you mentioned a couple of thought leaders, John Maxwell, and then I think you mentioned a couple others. Do you mind sharing who they are?
Scott Fay (38:02)
There you go.
No, I don't mind at all. Patrick Lencioni has really impacted me when it comes to company culture and team health. And I agree with John who says everything rises and falls on leadership. And in that context, I agree. And the thing that's the restrictor plate, if you will, is you also have to have a great culture. I mean, culture...
I don't care how good of a leader you are if you can't change the culture. And my very quick description of culture, if character is who we are when no one's watching, culture is how the organization behaves when no one is managing. And we could spend some time there. But Patrick Lencioni has definitely been a big impact on me. Harvey McKay, who wrote Swim with Sharks, but one of his lesser known books,
that has really impacted me is dig your well before you're thirsty. And it's about the relationships that, again, because I'm a relationship guy, you don't become friends to get. You become friends and really value people. And then you realize they have a sweet spot. They have a strength that when you tap into, it's good for them and it's good for you. It's not a one -way street. Bob Berg has been another one.
He lives right here in Jupiter. Just I love Bob Berg and his work with networking and being a go, one of his best book is Go Giver. And he's a very genuine, I just love him as a person. My dad, Roy Rood, I've been blessed with so many really, really strong character value based.
influencers.
Nick (40:11)
while you were talking about that. You said, I don't care how good of a leader you are, something about if you can't change culture. I mean, can you be much of a leader if you're not changing culture? If you've got a bad culture, you're the root up.
Scott Fay (40:16)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah, yes, that's right. So indirectly or otherwise, it falls on the leader. I guess what I want to say is all the leadership, leadership includes making sure you have a good healthy culture. And that is a big study all of itself. I've come to believe, and I think this is from Lencioni,
Nick (40:46)
Mm -hmm.
Scott Fay (40:52)
There's only three ways to uplift the culture. It's language, symbols, and example. The words we use really, really matter. Symbols, we have symbols everywhere. Here's one of my favorite ones. I don't know if you've heard me talk about this. I think I talked about it in the book. Okay, so this came from Susan Scott, who wrote a book called Fierce Conversations. I read it years ago, and she said, and I can do this here, she said,
Nick (41:06)
No.
Yeah, I love it.
Scott Fay (41:20)
This represents the reality in any relationship of two or more people, a marriage, a family, an organization. And all of us, we have to understand that in a beach ball, it has six wedges of color and each wedge is equal in importance to the reality. It's just different. So right now I happen to know because I have the phone in front of me, you can see orange and green, correct? Yeah, but I've got red and blue over here, I promise you. And.
since there's not a phone on this side of the, you have to take my word for it. You don't really know. And the people on this side see the yellow and some of the orange or some of the red, right? And so we all have a different color of the beach ball. And we use this symbol. There's one here in my office, there's one in Tom's office, there's one in the conference room. You'll hear it said around here often, from my color of the beach ball, that's not a good idea.
That's shorthand for saying, Nick, I know you're passionate about this and I get it. You see something that I don't, but I'm telling you from where I sit, you know, HR says, now I got to hire some people. Sales are very excited because now they can sell something more and it's going to, accounting says, now I got to set up a new vendor. And whether they're hot or cold depends on how, what color of the beach ball they have. What a good leader does,
It takes that reality and says, guys, listen, check this out. I want to give you a piece of, and an even a better situation is let's throw this beach ball around. Let's all look at it. Another way that's, you'll see on the blue here, there's a circle here. There's some people in our organization we've given a very specific task to. That's all they have to worry about. It's no wonder they don't see this. It's not their fault.
And I don't want them to worry about this. I just want them to focus on this. But this leader has to say, look, I was in a meeting and this is here. You know what I'm saying? So this is simple. Language symbols, yes. Yes.
Nick (43:20)
Yeah. Yeah. Like, I believe you have to synthesize all those inputs and everybody kind of knows, like, I may only be responsible for the blue panel, but I know there's a whole beach ball here.
Scott Fay (43:31)
Right. There's a whole more here. Right. And from time to time as a leader, I'll say, guys, trust me on this. I can't show you the rest of the ball right now. I will, but I can't right now. We're in the battle. Run, go, fire, shoot, aim, whatever it is. Take my word for it. We'll get to the why later. And a good leader, you know, so language symbols and an example. And of course, if we don't, if the words don't match the music.
Scott Fay (43:59)
Yeah, the words have to match the music. So if we don't live into the example, if we're saying to our people, it really, really matters that you return your phone calls very timely and we don't return our phone calls because we're the CEO or are pooped up and everybody will say it that way. But, you know, we don't live into it. We destroy our message.
Nick (44:17)
Yeah.
Scott Fay (44:19)
the language thing, we have something that kind of rocks people when they first come to work for us. When I get to talk with them, I say, you know, in a lot of companies you'll hear, we're just like a family. You won't hear that here. We'll never say that. And if you do say it, you'll be corrected. Because family is a very different designation. And I love you. I care about you.
but you're not family because I don't get to pick and choose my family. I can never fire my family. It doesn't match when I say, Nick, you're just like family. By the way, Friday's your last day because you're not quite cutting it. It's like, no, we're a team. We're a high performance team. We've agreed. Here's the goals that we're after. And if you don't have the skill sets to do that, I love you. I respect you. You'll need to play in another team. But I need this for my team. We're a race team. And if you can't run the race, then I don't need you on my team.
So we don't use the word. So language symbols, it affects our culture and it has become kind of funny because you know you're getting to when in the water cooler, they're smacking each other on the arm and saying, you know, remember you're not family and they're doing it in fun, but it becomes part of our culture. They get it. The words, words matter.
Nick (45:30)
Right, they get it. You know, it, yeah. So I'm guessing, so I think I know what you would say about this, but one of the things I believe is all problems are leadership problems. What do you think about that?
Scott Fay (45:45)
Yes, yes, yes, I really do. In fact, and we have to remind ourselves because a lot of times we'll go right down to where we think the problem is instead of right up to where the problem started.
Nick (46:01)
Yeah.
Scott Fay (46:01)
You know, and so I promise you, you hear this often. I'll say to right around this, we're in my office right now and you're sitting on the conference table. Around this table, when we have a, we just had one this last week, I said, guys, ultimately it's on me. Cause I've allowed us to think this way and thinking this way has allowed us to act this way and acting this way has allowed us to get this result over here.
And ultimately that's on me. Okay, we've identified I'm the problem. Now, let's fix it. We don't need to spend a lot of time. It doesn't matter if you're the problem or somebody else own it, whatever, and then move on. But yes, it is a leadership problem. And more times than not, we fire the wrong person.
And yeah, we're firing the symptom. And the problem remains, and then we have the problem over and over and over again. The problem was the design issue.
Nick (46:50)
Do you fire the symptom?
Scott Fay (47:01)
One of my favorite things comes from Lencioni. Can you see that triangle?
Nick (47:09)
Yes, results, accountability, commitment, conflict, trust.
Scott Fay (47:11)
Yeah, yeah. So at the very top is the desired results. So we all agree on what we want, but a lot of times we are not willing to go through the steps. And so, by the way, my whole wall is dry erase wall.
Nick (47:26)
Yeah, Scott, you're gonna have to organize a take your neighbor to work day. I've got to come back.
Scott Fay (47:30)
Hahaha!
So that triangle has helped us with our culture as much as anything because it's built on trust and we talk about all the ways that you can build trust. And the second level is a word everybody hates, but I've come to love it. It's the word conflict. Conflict brings clarity. I don't enjoy conflict. I'm not demented. I'm not twisted. But conflict brings clarity. And when you can openly tell me...
what's bugging you and why it's bugging. If I can just, here's the lesson I've learned from Lencioni. If I can speak like I'm 100 % right and listen like I'm 100 % wrong.
Our country would be the United States of America, not the divided states of America. If we could just speak like we're right and listen like we're wrong, there is common ground.
Nick (48:15)
It's thank you.
Yeah, like that's safety, right? When you can do that, that we've made it safe. You've established something there.
Scott Fay (48:29)
Yes.
Yes, yes, 100%. So in that triangle, you have trust conflict, then you come to an agreement, and then you can have true accountability because we agreed, this is how we're gonna, I don't care whose idea it was, we agreed this is what we're gonna do, and when we do that, we get the desired results. If we don't get the desired results, we go back down the steps and say, wait a minute, did we agree on the right things? Did we sort this out? And then somebody will inevitably, if you're not careful, if you're not healthy, say, well,
I never thought it would work all along. You're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute, now we gotta go back to the conflict. We gotta hash this out. You didn't say that before. You held back. You owed it to the team to say, I don't think this is gonna work.
Language symbols an example.
Nick (49:22)
I love that.
Yeah.
Scott Fay (49:23)
That was a long answer to a short question.
Nick (49:25)
You know, I think you've earned the right to be able to, to explain it the way that you feel gets the point across best because everything that I've asked and you know, a lot of this stuff is abstract, but everything that I've asked and that I've heard you talk about has, there's always been a very clear point taken away from it every time. So it's, you know, there is a difference in somebody who's rambling to talk, right. And somebody who's making a point. You definitely make a point.
Scott Fay (49:30)
Thank you.
Yeah, right.
Well, I got to give all the credit to my mentors because they have really invested in me and I'm glad to pass it along for sure.
Nick (50:01)
Well, I appreciate
Nick Berry is an accomplished entrepreneur and CEO, whose track record includes founding and leading numerous companies since 2002.
He is also a mentor and coach to other entrepreneurs and business owners who are looking for a trusted (and proven) advisor.
Among peers, colleagues, staff, and clients, Nick has been referred to as both 'The Business Guy' as well as 'The Anti-Guru', due to his pragmatic approach and principled leadership.
He shares his insights and lessons learned, along with those of his expert guests,
on his podcast, 'The Business Owner's Journey'.
