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In this episode of The Business Owner’s Journey, host Nick Berry sits down with Dana Farber, Founder of Moonstone Marketing, as part of our special "12 Days of Business" mini-series. Dana shares her expert approach to customer insight mapping and why understanding subtle consumer behaviors is essential for authentic and effective marketing. Through a real-time exercise, Nick and Dana uncover the hidden journey behind purchase decisions and explore how empathetic marketing builds brand trust.
Dana challenges the misconception that marketing is purely transactional. She explains how subtle touchpoints, such as brand storytelling and authentic messaging, build trust over time. These incremental interactions reinforce a customer's journey, showing that effective marketing goes beyond clicks and ROI.
Rather than relying on discounts to drive conversions, Dana emphasizes the power of authentic storytelling that resonates with customer needs. Crafting a message that aligns with your audience can lead to full-price purchases, showing the value of a narrative-driven approach.
Business owners often assume their customers think and act like them. Dana explains that customers experience an emotional, multi-touchpoint journey influenced by their unique needs. Insight mapping reveals these differences, leading to more empathetic marketing strategies.
Dana highlights the importance of integrating multiple touchpoints—emails, social media, and web content—throughout the customer journey. A single tactic isn’t enough to build trust; success comes from a cohesive, data-driven strategy that reflects customer behavior.
Purchase decisions are rarely logical. Dana illustrates how consumer behavior is deeply emotional and influenced by marketing touchpoints that foster authenticity and trust. Every purchase tells a story, and understanding this narrative is key to connecting with your audience.
This episode is part of the 12 Days of Business mini-series.
Dana's previous appearance on The Business Owner’s Journey: Mindful Marketing for Visionary Leaders and Brands
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The Business Owner's Journey Podcast host: Nick Berry
Production Company: FCG
Nick
Okay, so One of the things that we're that we're wanting to try to do here is kind of put ourselves out there and hopefully not embarrass me a great deal. I'm okay. I'm open to be embarrassed a little bit. But yeah, so I wanted to see you brought some type of exercise or we're to do some type of workshop where we're going to put each other on the spot here.
Dana Farber
Never.
I sure did. I sure did. Yes. Yes.
Nick
and see how this goes. I want you to flex your muscles.
Dana Farber
Perfect. So yeah, so we're going to do an exercise and the reason that we came up with this exercise together kind of was...
I talk a lot about mindful marketing and really what that is other than it just sounds nice, is it's about authentic and empathetic marketing. And I think in order to be authentic, you have to be empathetic. can't speak with authenticity if you don't know the people that you're talking to. And I find that a lot of clients when they first come to me, again, it's not their fault. It's how marketing itself needs marketing. Marketing itself has gotten a bad rap.
know, and it sounds even like just if you're like, marketing, know, what are we gonna do?
put a Facebook ad out there, we're gonna go cold email someone, neither of which are marketing, but I can't get into that. Like, you know, it's just people don't think of themselves as consumers and as victims of marketing and users of marketing. So what I like to do, I like to always start with my clients with what I call consumer insight mapping. So it's a little exercise that we're gonna do together today. And so basically, I'm gonna prove to you and I don't think you're a skeptic, Nick, but pretend you're a skeptic who doesn't believe in marketing for the
so I'm gonna ask you a series of questions based on a recent purchase that you made. so do you have anything you've purchased in the last week? it can be online, can be in -store, online is helpful for these purposes, but it can be anything. anything you've bought in the last week that we can use as an example.
Nick
We can do a book or I I wouldn't got a haircut. Can you tell?
Dana Farber
Okay.
I sure can. sure can. Either of those work. Either of those work. So, okay. Yeah, I know you just don't want to seem so vain on this podcast, Okay, perfect. Let's start with the book. Okay, so you bought a book this week. I'm going to ask you a series of questions and each one of them is going to hopefully shape all the different parts of a marketing funnel that we need as a brand.
Nick
Let's do the book. I don't want to talk about my hair.
Dana Farber
reverse engineer what is the ultimate endpoint that's already happened at this point in the conversation that you made a purchase. So what was the initial need? What was the initial problem or need that led you to consider making this purchase for this specific book? And you can share the book too if you would
Nick
It is 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership and
Dana Farber
great.
Nick
the I try to always be have a book that I'm reading and I was just about finished with the one, the previous one and someone yeah, that was next in
Dana Farber
Okay, perfect. So you're a consistent reader. It's something that maybe you have a list somewhere going. It's something you keep a pulse on. New books, you talk about books with people. So books are in interest of yours, something consistent, and you're always trying to read a new one. So you're always trying to kind of keep up with that. So how did you first hear about this specific
Nick
Someone mentioned it in a post somewhere online. I do not remember
Dana Farber
Okay, so someone mentioned it at that point that they mentioned it. Did you mark it down somewhere at the time they mentioned it? Okay, so you marked it down. I personally, I use Goodreads to track my to read list, but everyone has their own to read list, I'm sure somewhere. So you marked it down at the time you didn't save the post, but you marked down that book from a post that you read, correct? Okay.
Nick
Mm -hmm. I went to actually went to Amazon and added it to my
Dana Farber
You added to your list on Amazon. Intent to purchase. We like it. So what caught your attention specifically about this book? Was there a benefit of it? Was it an author you knew? the cover look interesting? What was it about this particular book that caught your interest?
Nick
It was mentioned, this is coming back to me now. It was mentioned by another business owner. Let's see, how did this come about? There was another business owner who I saw a post that they made and they were talking about the business coach that they were working with. so when I was looking into that business coach, that book was on their
like those attached to them somehow.
Dana Farber
Okay, so it attached to the business coach. Is this separate from the post you saw or this is the same post that you had seen? Okay, Okay.
Nick
Yeah, it was separate from the post. So the post sent me to this, this second person's profile where I
Dana Farber
this person, did you already follow them or this was the first time you were seeing them? Okay, so this is now basically kind of two impressions you've had of this book now at this point. Did you research or compare other similar books at the same time? Did you look at reviews? Did you look at, did you price compare? Did you do any kind of comparison before you added this to your cart?
Nick
Mm -mm. First time ever.
The only thing that I did was I mentioned it to Kelly, my wife, and she was familiar with it and said, yeah, another person that we know has been either read it or been through the program, I'm not exactly sure, but has experience with
Dana Farber
Okay?
Okay, okay, okay. So if anyone's keeping track at home, we're now counting three impressions towards this purchase. Now we're starting to see a clearer picture of why you bought this book, perhaps. Did you engage with any content from the brand or let's say the author prior to making a purchase? Did you look at their blog, their website, any social media? Did you engage at all with their brand?
Nick
I I'm 90 % sure that I did it before I clicked buy.
Dana Farber
Okay.
Nick
But yeah, I went, it was on the website, went through, they have some materials on their, on their website, resources available. So yeah, I kind of checked into their whole ecosystem.
Dana Farber
Okay, and so by doing that, kind of reinforced that you were already thinking about buying this book, but everything you saw on their website reinforced that this book would be valuable based on their existing content. Okay, great. So how many times did you interact with the brand before making a purchase decision? Did you visit their website? You visited their profile of someone? Did you get any emails? Did you watch any videos?
Nick
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
I don't think so. think when I went to the website, I probably read a couple of articles that they had, downloaded a resource, maybe a second resource. I don't remember exactly, but I got a couple of different pieces of material from them off of their website.
Dana Farber
Okay, and everything you read reinforced this decision. This should be the next book I'm going to read. Okay, great. What factors contributed to building trust in the product? Did you read any reviews? Did you, or was it really just that it came from sources you trust, you confirmed it with your wife who had also heard of it, which also gives you a little trust, any outside third party resources you use to validate that purchase?
Nick
Mm -hmm. Yep.
No, think it was kind of those two layers were, and then when I went to their website, just the information there, there were certain pieces of it that really resonated that just the way that they're phrasing things that they said were things that I like, I'm familiar with. And so that I think is kind of what pushed me over the
Dana Farber
Mm -hmm.
Okay, so a little confirmation bias. You saw some things that resonated with you that you've seen before and it can, yeah, you knew they were right. Exactly, exactly. So what was the final factor that influenced your decision to click add to cart and purchase and the day, the hour that you actually purchased it? Price, did anything affect you there? Convenience?
Nick
I knew they were
Yeah.
I went through the process that like, it's so familiar. don't really think about these steps, you know? Yeah.
Dana Farber
well, yeah, that's that's the point, Nick. That's how Amazon has we are sheep. We are just being led straight into the cart.
Nick
Yeah. I mean, I think by the time I went to their website, I was already going to buy the book at that point. just kind of escalated to really looking forward to it.
Dana Farber
right right confirmed it you ultimately made that purchase on amazon or through their website on amazon okay was it an amazon link from their website or what did you search for it separately on amazon
Nick
on Amazon. Yeah, I think.
I searched for it separately. Yeah, I think the point where I decided like I'm going to get this book was probably between Kelly's mentioning her familiarity with it and the website. I don't remember which was first.
Dana Farber
Okay, but both of those steps helped you ultimately make that purchase and think this is gonna be a solid next book to read. So can you describe the experience of the actual purchase process? Was it easy? Was it straightforward? Were there any obstacles from clicking add to cart to you got that confirmation email? It is on its way to you in two days. Easy peasy, one click.
Nick
Mm
Mm
Nope, it was pretty easy. You know Amazon.
Dana Farber
one click, all your information is stored. You want it tomorrow? You want to save boxes? We'll get it to you in a day. Yep. And then the last question. So how did you feel after making the purchase? Did you receive any follow -up communication from the brand? Did anything that's happened since you bought the book impact your perception of the book, the author, et cetera?
Nick
I don't think I've gotten any communication from them. I'm sure that I've gotten communication from Amazon. But none of them kind of numb to that. The experience, I mean, you know, with Amazon, the books there in a day or two, start reading it a day or two after that. And so far, it's been a good experience. It's met the expectations that I had.
Dana Farber
sure.
met the expectations. So if you were to get an email from the author, you know, not directly, but from the publishing group in about two weeks asking you to leave a good review, you would say you would do
Nick
Sure, yeah. Yeah, so if they give me a prompt and a smooth path to a review, especially now that I'm doing a podcast, I have a new appreciation for reviews.
Dana Farber
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Right? Seriously. Yeah, look at them. They just got a whole free ad from this.
Nick
Yep. Yeah. So if they prompt me and get, make it a smooth path, I'm an easy person to give a
Dana Farber
Okay, perfect. Well, so that was the end of that exercise. So basically, if we reverse engineer it, what I like is in the beginning, it was, bought a book this week.
By the end of our conversation, we realized that there were much greater factors at play to you buying a book this way. You you had to get outside validation to build that trust. You had to get it confirmed. I think we counted four times that you had some confirmation. Not that you weren't gonna buy it, but each step in that process made you more and more likely to make that purchase, potentially even quicker than you would have. So that was moving you from the top of the funnel where
Great, I need a book.
I read books all the time. I just finished a book. I need a book. That was where you were at the beginning. By the end of that journey, this was the only book you were going to read next because you would have it confirmed four different times on four different channels by their own copy on their website, by the ease of use of them being sold directly through Amazon and leveraging a third party platform that already exists. It was confirmed to you by an outside career coach that you liked what they had to say. You might have seen that on LinkedIn.
And then fourth, it was confirmed to you by your own wife, someone in your sphere of influence who had been directly connected to or had heard of this book before. So that's four different impressions it took for you to ultimately make that purchase. So if I was a marketer, which I am, if I, you know, was going to work with this, if this author was going to come to me and say, you know, we're having trouble selling this book.
Or another author was to come to me and say, we're having trouble selling this book. I would use this as a great example of is the ease, it's the process easy. Do we have a website or standalone content that is going to confirm the purchase and shape more of the brand story around this singular purchase, which is something it's a book. You know, it's not a repeat purchase. unless they decide to write a series, this is a solo purchase for them. So how are they building up every step of the marketing process so that you were pretty quick convert for them?
in less than a week, I would say. So I think it's just a really interesting exercise because everyone thinks that marketing is this very rigorous dollars and cents. have to see a sponsored ad on LinkedIn. And if I click on that now, I'm on their list. It is so much more subtle than that. Subtle and I would say slightly insidious due to the Amazon of it all.
and that marketing is everywhere. And I call it to my clients, say it's like seeing the matrix. Once you see it, you cannot unsee it. And now every purchase you make for the next week, you're probably gonna in your mind be, why did I make this purchase? What did, you know, all the steps all made it easier for you to be receptive to that purchase. If they had sent you an email the day after you were gonna purchase with a 15 % off discount, great. They,
would have gotten less for that purchase. So it just shows I think people go straight to a discount and think that's what is ultimately going to get a conversion. No, I mean you can buy things at full price. We do it all the time just by telling the right story and understanding who our end consumer is. And you know they wrote this book for someone like you, someone who's interested in non -fiction, thought leadership, know perspective pieces, someone who's in the
or adjacent to certain industries, because obviously they're marketing in those industries. Someone who's savvy enough to be able to use Amazon and has an account and can make those one -click purchases without thinking about it, you are their ideal customer, and they sold it. So I just find it to be a really interesting exercise because it always gives us a light bulb moment, especially to my most skeptical of clients who think that they themselves can see through marketing and they're not a victim of it. We are all victims of it.
And, you know, I think that's a good thing.
Nick
Yeah, so I think that one of the really interesting things that's kind of come to light as we talk through this to me is, and I remember this reaching this point. So, you know, if I put the book on my list, at some point, I'm probably going to get it. You know, like in any book that goes on the list, I'm probably going to do it. But there was a place in this process, like after a couple of those touch points, and I'm sure that it sped
Dana Farber
Mm -hmm. Of course, of course.
Nick
like moving it to the top of the queue. But I remember for sure it becoming a book that I was 100 % going to read. Even if it wasn't next, I was absolutely going to read it at some point. Like that's an extra box that gets checked for me, right? It's like, got a list of probablys, there's a shorter list of
Dana Farber
Mm -hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yep, yeah, you were in.
Exactly. So you in turn were a qualified lead from them because you were saying yes I'm going to read you and then the bumped up every touchpoint probably got you closer to that purchase point You were already a pretty high intent, you know purchaser you like to read
Maybe the cost entry isn't too high. You're going to read this book and then every step in that process got you closer to ultimately making that purchase. And so that's you know, those are small purchases. Those are things that we purchase every day. You know, there is a psychological reason behind every single thing that we purchase and every
website we click on, know, there is and you know, there's there's data, there's cookies and everything that tracks this, but I'm much more interested in these psychological reasons behind consumer behavior. And I think this is a really nice exercise to do with yourself with other, you know, if you work with clients, do this with your clients, because it really just shows that everyone is susceptible to marketing. And the more you understand
Even myself as a marketer susceptible to marketing, realize it gets easier to execute. But I will say the caveat of that is I've also worked with founders that think I wouldn't do this so everyone wouldn't do this. I think you always have to take yourself out and just know that just because you are a consumer who maybe you hate abandoned cart emails and if you get an abandoned cart email now, I'm definitely not buying it. So we're never going to send an abandoned cart email there for everyone.
customer that hates an abandoned car email, there's 20 that love it. So you can't go off of your own wings and desires fully, but I think that using yourself and your team as case studies for the type of marketing that you like to receive and the way that you like to engage with the brand, I think that's a really great stepping stone to understanding how you want to use that for your own brand.
Nick
this is all been like very good for awareness. I think a lot of times I've gotten, you just described it. We get ourselves in trouble when we look at what we would do and what we would expect the audience to do as being like the same thing. And they're not, there are some things we can draw from and there are others that we need to disregard. I think, I feel like for me in a lot of cases,
I'm better off if I just completely throw what I would do out the window because I'm not sure that I'm a good example of any of
Dana Farber
Right.
Yeah, exactly. I am not my own ideal customer. And so yeah, I know some people who hate podcast ads. I personally like them. It gives me like a way to like, kind of just put it like when you have a commercial just like you can zone out for a couple seconds and then zone back in when your podcast starts. Sometimes your hands aren't free and you can't skip them, you know, so they're just going to be there. you know, everyone, I think it's understanding all the different steps to something even as small as a monthly.
book purchase, a stick of gum, you whatever you're buying, big or small, there are is intent that needs to happen. There is an initial need. You have to have baseline awareness of the brand or product.
You have to have interest. have to have consideration. You have to engage with the brand in some way. There has to be X amount of touch points. There needs to be trust. And then that key decision can happen. So there's a lot of steps that need to happen and not all of them are tied to a marketing activity and some are tied to any marketing activities, but that's how you kind of find that sweet spot that works for your brand. Cause you can't do everything. So you kind of got away. The things that are going to have the most value to you based on what your audience actually wants and what the behavior
starting to see with your consumer. So that's why I think that marketing should be data -driven. Marketing should be empathetic. It should be customer -led. It should be vision -led. And that's kind of where my idea for mindful marketing all comes from.
Nick
Yeah, I love that. It sounds from from our conversations, it seems like you've got a pretty consistent, like a structure or process that you like to take clients through to get you to the place that you need to be. Can you talk about that a little
Dana Farber
Mm -hmm.
Yes, yes,
Yeah, so I start all of my new clients with what I call brand insight. And I asked them a series of questions about 30 to 40 questions, they spend an hour with me and I dig into not just their business, but also you them as a person. I don't get too personal with it. But it's important that I know, like I said earlier, like what makes them tick what their ultimate motivation is. And I ask a lot of questions about their audience and who they perceive as our audience versus who their actual audience is. I asked for numbers, I asked
data and those are all just the initial starting points that get us to even put together a proposal that makes sense. So I do not do cold proposals. I don't just say great tell me you know give me a five minute picture of your and I'll tell you exactly what you need. I can't promise that and I don't like starting an engagement that way so instead I like to do the brand work at the top. It's part of any process that you do any any kind of work you do with Moonstone we always start with it. Some clients have just done that as a standalone project and
gives them insight, which is it's called brand insight. So it can be standalone. But for me, every single client process starts with a lot of questions, a lot of deep diving in. And then we add in all the organization. There's systems and processes we use to get them where they need to be. And we have three different programs that we can run based on what they're ultimately looking for. But I never just give a proposal off of, you know, an introduction or something like that, because I would never I would never assume to know
someone needs and I don't want them to tell ask me tell me what I need I want to ask them a series of questions so we can dig into what they need because I am not
Again, it's not my business, it's theirs, and I will care as much as if it's my business, but ultimately the motivations need to come from them. So I always say marketing is simple, not easy. It's definitely not easy, but there is like a rule to it. There are processes, there are systems that you can put in place that make it a little simpler to kind of see it more as ones and zeros instead of just this abstract.
catch all for all these different tactics that you can do. Once you start to see that there's different channels, there's different approaches, there's different activities, you start to see that there's categories and it's a little simpler to understand. But I really try not to overwhelm my clients with these are the biggest broadest things we can do. We start small, we build, we grow, we scale together. Every client wants a new website. There's usually 15 things we need to put in place before.
you know, they get a new website. so it's just important for me that I level set with my clients from the beginning, you know, and are real, they're realistic about their expectations, because marketing is not going to fix a broken business and never will. So that's never what I want to be brought on to do. But I'm more than happy to help grow and scale and market a business. But yeah, I definitely, definitely never want anyone think that marketing is a quick fix, because it's, it's definitely when done right, it is anything but.
Nick
I just really enjoy listening to like a craftsman talk about the craft. It's not an accident that it this is what you're doing. hearing you talk about some of these things like, you know, from the beginning of our conversation, you're talking about your curiosity being a thing like you always ask a lot of questions and then
Like that's kind of the central piece of you being really good at what you do, right? Like your strength is what puts you in a place to be able to understand the client's brand well enough to then like capture their voice. And it's just fascinating to
Dana Farber
Mm -hmm.
Yeah, the biggest compliment I can get when a client is, I've had clients be like, did I write this or did you write this? And it's such a compliment to me because I'm like, I'm in your head, aren't I? I'm living in there. And it's just nice because I know.
Nick
That's so cool.
Dana Farber
As a business owner, know how hard it is to relinquish control over something as specific as your messaging or your visual identity. These are very, very personal things to a business owner. I don't take it lightly. My team doesn't take it lightly. To me, it's such a compliment when clients feel like they can trust us as their mouthpiece out to the public. Again, it's not something I take lightly. Marketing is extremely important part of your business. It should be looked at as that.
like that and you know the clients that I've been lucky enough to work with also treat it that way.
Nick Berry is an accomplished entrepreneur and CEO, whose track record includes founding and leading numerous companies since 2002.
He is also a mentor and coach to other entrepreneurs and business owners who are looking for a trusted (and proven) advisor.
Among peers, colleagues, staff, and clients, Nick has been referred to as both 'The Business Guy' as well as 'The Anti-Guru', due to his pragmatic approach and principled leadership.
He shares his insights and lessons learned, along with those of his expert guests,
on his podcast, 'The Business Owner's Journey'.
