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In this episode of The Business Owner’s Journey, host Nick Berry continues his conversation with Dr. Haley Perlus, a Sport and Performance Psychologist, speaker, author, and entrepreneur. Dr. Perlus shares actionable insights on building self-belief in business leadership, balancing ambition with contentment, and adapting to challenges with mental toughness. They discuss practical strategies for business owners to navigate setbacks, develop resilience, and optimize their leadership mindset. This episode is packed with tools for business success and inspiration for personal and professional growth.
Dr. Perlus emphasizes that self-belief is cultivated through action and experience. It grows as you face challenges, take responsibility, and focus on your strengths. Falling and getting back up builds the courage to pursue success and fuels confidence. True self-belief isn’t about perfection but about showing up, learning, and taking control of what’s within your grasp.
The episode explores the interplay between striving for growth and appreciating your current achievements. Dr. Perlus suggests that business leaders can embrace both ambition and contentment by acknowledging their progress while staying motivated to reach new heights. It’s about being present in your journey while keeping an eye on future possibilities.
Adaptability is a critical skill for business owners, and Dr. Perlus introduces the "What If" plan—a method for preparing for the inevitable while fostering the ability to cope with the unexpected. By engaging in adaptability training, leaders can cultivate a mindset that thrives in unpredictable situations, bolstering resilience and problem-solving capabilities.
Dr. Perlus discusses the importance of "Now Goals," small, actionable objectives fully within your control that drive progress toward larger ambitions. These goals help maintain focus and build momentum, whether it’s committing to a daily habit or completing a short-term task. They lay the foundation for discovering and achieving long-term dreams.
Contrary to conventional wisdom, Dr. Perlus sheds light on how controlled procrastination can spark creativity and performance. For some, the urgency of deadlines activates their best work. By reframing procrastination as an opportunity to engage focus and energy, it can serve as a valuable tool for productivity.
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The Business Owner's Journey Podcast host: Nick Berry
Production Company: FCG
Haley (00:00)
When I think of mindset and mental toughness, I think it's learning to control the controllables, of course, learning to prepare for the inevitable, and then learning to cope with the unexpected. So those are three different things.
Nick Berry (00:19)
The Business Owner's Journey. I'm Nick Berry and I've got real business owners telling their real stories, sharing their real lessons and strategies so you don't have to figure it all out on your
Nick Berry (00:31)
this is part two of my episode with sport and performance psychologist, speaker, author, and entrepreneur, Dr. Haley Perlus. In part two of the interview, we're going to cover how business owners can work on their own resilience and self-belief, balancing ambition and contentment, how you can use the flow state, how she uses her now goals and her next goals to propel herself forward.
creating a critical thinking mind and the role of adaptability and preparation in navigating your business challenges.
Enjoy the second part of this interview with Dr. Haley Perlus
Haley (01:00)
Like self-belief is not handed to us, we earn it. We earn it by falling and getting back up. We earn it by focusing on our strengths. We earn it by taking responsibility and making things happen. We earn it by being courageous to expose ourselves to something, by being curious about something, by learning something. We earn the right to be confident. I don't know if you like that or not. Tell me how you feel that I'm playing around with that.
Nick Berry (01:26)
I do. I immediately start processing and thinking about, have I, let me think about this and I can, I'm sure I could tailor it either way. but Like, we, we were just talking about, but plenty of people out there or sources out there who are going to tell you like, it's okay for you to like be,
whatever state you are or to give yourself grace and let yourself off the hook. I think not everybody wants to be the best version of themselves. So for people who are not so worried about reaching their potential
you know, what we're saying here is just noise. for that group, I don't think what you just said would resonate very well. But I think for someone who understands agency conceptually, tries to put it into practice, like sees the value in it. Like that's empowering to me, right? yeah, that's a really good reminder that it is in my hands. It has been in my hands all along.
Haley (02:18)
And it's not about, it's not only about, I cannot completely disregard results and outcome and bottom lines. Obviously I too live in this world, but it cannot only be about that. It has to also be about the words that I just used before, which is being courageous, being curious, exposing yourself, testing the waters.
dipping a toe, you don't have to jump right in, dip a toe and learn. And those, when you do those things and being proud of yourself for doing those things, regardless of the outcome. And something that I still am trying to work with around for myself is this ability to be content, but also to have that growth side mindset and want to.
be content and driven at the same time. I actually don't think I have to choose between those two. I think I can be both. I feel like I can acknowledge where I am, acknowledge what I've succeeded, be happy in this moment for all of the stuff, not necessarily tangible stuff, but all the stuff that I have in my life, all the things that I experience life with, and be driven to see what else is out there.
I don't know that I have to choose between those two.
Nick Berry (03:40)
So that's great to hear you say, because that's one of the things that I've really been wrestling with recently and challenging. Am I really stretching it here by tailoring this to serve me in this moment is bringing that frame into different situations and thinking about like, I'm okay with this thing right now. Whether that be something small like sitting still.
or maybe not reading a book or maybe something bigger like where I'm at in my life, but learning to like 1 % better every day as an example is not sustainable. And it doesn't mean if I take some time off and I let it be okay for me to just be okay with things, it doesn't really take away from my drivenness.
Does that make sense? yeah, so it feels good to hear you talk about it and say like, you know what, I can kind of pick and choose when I'm going to tell myself it's okay to be either of those things. That's what I took from it.
Haley (04:28)
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. Yeah. And I think at the same time, I sometimes I feel like I can be both, you know, there's certainly one of my favorite concepts is flow state. My background is sport. We talk about flow state being in the zone. If you've never heard of the concept of flow state, but the founder of flow state, Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, say that 10 times fast. I think I got it right. I don't even know. But he talked of
Nick Berry (05:02)
right to me.
Haley (05:03)
He talked about flow state is when your demands meet your capabilities. So in other words, you're challenging yourself right at your level. But he also talks about this area right below flow state. He calls it control. So where you challenge yourself just below your current level of ability. And that gives you a perceived sense of control. And even though it's not flow,
It's pretty, it's pretty close and it feels good. And yes, you're still exerting effort, but like it's, it's a good place to be. Or you can also challenge yourself just above, like you said, that 1 % just above. And that's where he calls it arousal. And you know, at just below or just above, those are all good places to be on an every, and in any given day or moment or task.
Depending on how we woke up that day, depending on the task that we're pursuing, maybe I do want to go just below my current level of ability here and feel some control. Or maybe I do want to go just above and feel that arousal or at. It's when we go way below where we apathy. It's when we go way above and we feel anxiety. That's not fun. But why can't we just play around with those, you know, that control flow and arousal states?
And there's some contentment in there and there's also some drive to improve in there.
Nick Berry (06:32)
Yeah, that makes total sense. That reminds me, that's a book I need to go back and reread. It's been a few years, but I really like that. but the way that you laid it out, like that's pretty simple, right? It makes sense to me. I feel like I could be putting that to practice when we finish here, right? I may even put that into practice the rest of this discussion.
Haley (06:50)
What do mean? You haven't been doing that already. Nick.
Nick Berry (06:53)
I'm not sure. What I'm not going to do is I'm not going to coast the rest of the way. Haley, you're going to something near my best. it's been a few minutes ago, but you said something about an issue that you have with goals.
Haley (06:58)
No, that I guarantee. I
Nick Berry (07:07)
Do you mind sharing that?
Haley (07:08)
Yes. If someone comes to me with a dream goal, great. Whether that's a typical five-year plan or, you know, this is what optimal success, I want to reach this standard of performance, a dream goal, you know, the biggest goal that they can come up with. And again, long-term, most often. Great. Great. It's motivating. It comes from inside.
I hope it's not a should goal. And I say should in quotations because it's not something that they chose if it's a should goal. It's something that was pushed onto them for whatever reason, internal or external. But if they have a dream goal, great. But I'm not going to force a dream goal onto anyone. So I'm not going to force a five-year plan if they don't have a five-year plan. not gonna, cause I know that things happen. And again, goals in my experience,
Goals, the ones that truly work are the ones that we just, it's full heart. Like they're created by, you know, just innate and have that true desire and attachment to. So that's the one thing with when it comes to long-term goals. I don't make anybody set those. But if you have one, great. But if you do have one, they can also, even though they're lovely and motivating, they can also be extremely distracting.
two goals that I do believe in, I call it next goal. So that's the that's the that's a short term accomplishment. I want to finish this book, I want to start a podcast, I want to, you know, pitch to this company and pick up the phone and call them and ask for the job, whatever that next goal is, you see there, that's a short term week. In sports psychology, we call them performance goals, I just call them my next goal, like
It's the one thing that I'm looking at right now. I do believe in that one. And then most importantly, in sports psychology, we call them process goals. call them now goals. And those are the actions that are 100 % within my control and 100 % within my belief that I'm going to do like in the day to day, you know, or at least once a week or something along those terms. So.
maybe it's doing my recovery first thing every morning. So it's funny, I'll give you, I'll share an example. So right now I have a now goal in my life and it is going for a morning walk. So my partner and I, my boyfriend and I, go for a walk every morning and I say every morning I'm striving for perfection, but I don't demand it. Sometimes if I'm traveling, it doesn't happen. But this morning I also had an early appointment. I
We walked out together, I walked to the stop sign, and then I turned around. He kept going and I turned around and came back. It was a two minute walk. So it's not always going to look a certain way, but it is my now goal and the timing wasn't 100 % within my control, but I could do what I could do within the time that I had. And those to me are the most important. Sticking to, you know, writing for...
30 minutes every day. doesn't even matter what I write because that may not be within my control. But just writing 30 minutes a day, reading two chapters a day, making 10 phone calls a day, I can't control if they're going to pick up the phone, but I can dial the number 10 times. Those are the now goals that help you achieve your next goal that if you have a dream goal will get you closer to that dream goal. And here's the best part.
If you don't have a dream goal yet, your now goals, which help you accomplish your next goals, help you discover what your dreams can be.
Nick Berry (10:52)
yeah, I like that. So when I was shuffling around, pulling out my resource here, because I was pretty sure that I had that page marked as something that we can talk about. Yeah, I like that. The way that you described, like it's what I could do right now. And we hadn't talked about this, but I think the perspective on like adaptability, are you familiar with Commander's intent?
Haley (10:57)
You do.
Maybe,
Nick Berry (11:14)
it's basically like, you know what the commander meant. So don't get lost in, like, you know what the purpose of this action is. So don't get lost in something like too literally, right? So you still went for a walk today, right?
It wasn't the exact same type of walk that you had been doing, but you did what you were able to do in that situation to meet the goal, the best you were going to be able to. Like that's the commander's intent is being able to like recognize here's what we, what was meant by that. Not we failed because we didn't follow it literally.
Haley (11:50)
I love that. Thank you for sharing that. The commander's intent. Yes.
the interesting thing is that I'm actually really proud of myself because because it couldn't be perfect, I could have chosen not to do it at all. But the fact that I did it, it would have been easier. And the fact that I did it, wow, Hayley, even though it didn't look the way you wanted to look and you know, I'm actually even more proud of myself for doing that.
Nick Berry (12:02)
would have been easier.
Haley (12:14)
than doing it the right way. put the quotations up there as well. know, the way it was getting lost in the details and the way it was intended. Yeah.
Nick Berry (12:22)
Yep. like to, sometimes I have to remind myself like I'm going to get to the end of this day or week or month or whatever. I'm going get to this end of this period of time and I'm going to be able to look back and I'm going to feel some kind of way about what I see. So I'm going to either look back on a day where I didn't even take the little short walk when I could have, or I'm going to look back on a day where
It might've been jam packed and I might've had to cut a few corners, but I still got the things that needed to be fit in there. I got them fitted in. And so like that's, that's the, my kind of cue that I use for myself when I'm hedging on that. I could get away with not walking today or riding or whatever it's going to be, but I will not feel good. I'll feel fine about it right now for a minute, but I will not feel good about it tonight when I look back.
Haley (13:00)
Yeah, right. Right.
one of the greatest quotes that I've heard or lessons and questions that we can assess or we can ask ourselves is, I think it was Tom Bilyeu who I was watching an episode and he said, the most important thing is how you think about or how you feel. The most important thing is how you feel about yourself when you're by yourself or think about yourself when you're by yourself.
And I can tell you today when I'm by myself, you know, cause it's not about showing off to anybody else. mean, yes, I'm telling you that I did this cause we're in a, you know, came up in conversation, but I'm not calling everybody, letting them know that I went for a two minute walk today. But, but I am proud of myself for doing that. And I think that's super cool. And the most important thing is how you feel about yourself when you're by yourself. We got to live with ourselves.
Nick Berry (13:52)
yeah, I like.
along those lines, another thing from your book that I wanted to ask you about was the what if plans. when I was reading that, it made me think, that's kind of, prepping you for that adaptability. Like preparing for the unknown and even preparing for the...
Well, what happens if none of those things are an option and I'm totally off guard and having to think on my feet? How do I wanna be when that Am I thinking about that right?
Haley (14:18)
No, so that's great. It's two. So the what if plan helps in two ways. When I think of mindset and mental toughness, I think it's learning to control the controllables, of course, learning to prepare for the inevitable, and then learning to cope with the unexpected. So those are three different things.
Controlling what you can control. So that again, that's me going for a two minute walk, because that was what I could control. Preparing for the inevitable would be that what if plan. So inevitably in sports, if you're participating in outside sports, the weather is not going to be always go perfect. It's not always going to be perfect. perhaps right now it's football season and it was raining last week on one of the football games or snow is going to.
It's not every time it happens, but inevitably I'm going to be playing in some poor weather. So how am going to best prepare for that? I know it might come. So that would be that second piece. And that's what that what if plan is for, to write down what if it rains? What if my meeting gets canceled? What if my child leaves me when I'm still working on this project? What if, what if, what if traffic? What if an in, you know, so what if all these things that
are inevitable at some point. But then when you said, how do I control for the unexpected that I couldn't see that's never happened before? Well, here's the cool thing about the what if plan. It's training. You're actually engaging your brain and you're creating that adaptability skill set so that when something happens that you didn't see coming, that you've never happened, that's never happened before, because you've engaged in this adaptability training.
In that moment, you can pull, okay, you know, I've been in, I've gone through similar trainings or I've gone, you know, my brain is, has been trained to be adaptable. So how am going to be adaptable? How am going to cope with this unexpected situation? And because of the what if plan, even though that specific scenario isn't on your what if plan, you've trained your mind.
to engage in that type of critical thinking, that type of creative thinking. And then the cool thing is now that you've had that as an experience, that then goes to the what if plan. And you know, because what if it happens again?
Nick Berry (16:48)
Yeah, yeah, I love that. It's like the what if plan is helping you prepare for the things that might happen. They're going to happen eventually, not if it's when, right? And then there's that third level is a way for you to, you're not going to be left empty handed entirely or ill equipped to do anything if there's something that comes like that was not on any of these scripts.
Haley (17:14)
Because generally speaking, you've engaged in adaptability training. Generally speaking, you've started to create a critical thinking mind, creative thinking mind, resilient mind. because you just have experience with that, it can transfer to this new, never seen before situation.
Nick Berry (17:37)
Yeah, you just named adaptability, critical thinking. with our coaching, I use what I call like the leadership muscles. So stakeholder awareness, adaptability, agency, communication, critical thinking, growth mindset.
They're the elements that we use to try to coach to with the business owners. So they're like, you just rattled them right off. That's my validation.
That means like I got it. If Haley talked about it, I got it pretty right.
something else from our conversation before we talked about the butterflies and in using that to.
settle yourself, calm your nerves if you're anxious or stressed. So that's what prompted me to, arrive at this cue that I've been using that I think has been really helpful. And well, it has been really helpful so far, but it's like,
You look at things that cause stress. So for me, it's when I've got too many things that are just too far apart, that are like kind of out of control and I'm trying to make sense of it. So whether that's like my schedule for the week or if it's my priorities for a period of time or if it's, you know, it could be a portfolio, it could be a set of responsibilities, but it's these things, like if they're not packed in this little box,
then it can feel like they're getting away. And started to look, try to reframe things instead of me looking at them like, things are really scattered, like this sucks. It's happen very often that things align this perfectly for whatever's about to happen.
And to me, I don't know why, but the whatever's about to happen, like I know it's like, I'm going to look it back on this at the end of this day or this week or this month or whatever. And I'm going to feel some kind of way about it. So the whatever happened was on me, right? I have, I'm the one who has to take responsibility for that.
I've got all these things and it's not necessarily chaos. They might be right exactly where they need to be for me to do what I'm about to do.
Haley (19:38)
organized chaos.
Nick Berry (19:40)
But it clears my head and settles everything down to where I can get back to looking at it the way that I need to look at it to solve the problem.
Haley (19:49)
Yeah, you're kind of just telling yourself to not make a big deal of it. It's okay. And you're going to take responsibility either way. And getting to know you, Nick. I know that you want to take responsibility because I know you want to be able to look inside and, and either learn or pat yourself on the back and, there's comfort in you knowing that you're responsible.
which I think is a really good thing. applaud you for that. I congratulate you for that. First of all, if it works, it works. So the coolest thing about what I think that I've learned in my industry is that there's definitely a science to it.
but there's an art to it. It's both science and art and it kind of goes to Frank Sinatra, do it your way. so we talked about an idea of butterflies flying out all out of control and then putting them into that inverted V and you heard that and you got the concept and maybe you use that specific for yourself too, but then you also have this, a second, maybe they're not flying out of control to hurt me. Maybe they're flying, I don't even know if I want to label them out of control, but maybe they're doing what they're doing.
you know, and it's okay, whatever is to be will be and you trust that process. So you don't really give them a whole lot of weight or the weight you're giving them is like, you're doing this for a reason. And, that reason will come. love that. That is you doing it your way. And, I may steal it and offer that to others. I'll call it the Nick theory.
Nick Berry (21:18)
like that. There are a lot of Nick theories that float around, just so you know.
Haley (21:21)
I like it.
you know what, it makes me think, I don't think it's a bit of a stretch. I actually think it's very valuable. I consider myself, I'll see if I can, you'll tell me if I'm on the right track here. Sometimes I consider myself to be a pro cras-tonator. you know, there are certain things where bad Haley get things done on time. You know, I like to be in places early.
definitely learned that. But then there are times when, for example, someone asked me for a keynote presentation 30 minutes before the keynote.
I say no. I need to feel, goodness, that presentation's coming. I need to feel a little bit of the worry, because that's when the juices start to flow. And even though it's an uncomfortable feeling, like the butterflies swarming all over your stomach is an uncomfortable feeling, for moments that I'm being a pro procrastinator, I like it. And those moments, it's an uncomfortable feeling. But I also tell myself,
something's gonna come from this. And it's a calming and you're right, it increases a little bit of perceived control for me. So I don't know if that's what you meant, just feeling that little bit of anxiety and, but in the immediate of anxiety, sometimes it's a good thing, it's that a fight or flight. And when we accept it, it's okay for the time being. We don't wanna live there, we don't wanna live there, cause damage can happen.
Nick Berry (22:38)
Mm-hmm.
Haley (22:43)
But there's some benefit to feeling like that. And maybe that's what you're saying. It's benefit for me to have all these things going at once. Something's going to happen.
Nick Berry (22:51)
Yeah, I mean, I don't feel like they are where they are. So I don't really have any choice. I can't change that in this moment. but if I can change the way that I'm viewing it to feel differently and put me in a better position to address the problem, like that, that's kind of the idea. And when that happens, I do, there is some like excitement that's kind of like, I think it's
Haley (23:07)
Why not?
Nick Berry (23:14)
what I feel whenever I'm like up against the gun on something where maybe I've procrastinated too. It's like, it just wouldn't have been exciting for me to do it well in advance. I just couldn't get motivated to do it. But now that it's here, like I can look forward to it and I can get excited about it and I can enjoy doing it and do it pretty well. So I don't know if that's rationalizing, but it like.
It beats the hell out of being paralyzed or feeling like overwhelmed by a situation or circumstances or at the mercy of.
Haley (23:48)
I completely agree. Yeah.
Nick Berry (23:50)
So I just totally turned this into a coaching session for me. So I appreciate it.
Haley (23:53)
Not really, because you had all the tools. You were already using it. I didn't tell you to do anything different. Or maybe I just confirmed your fixed false belief. I'm joking.
Nick Berry (23:58)
This is, well, we did a great job.
So you're not an enabler, I do know that. Yeah, that's another sign of a great coach. You're gonna let me walk away from here thinking that it was my, I'm the one who did it. I know what you're doing. Yeah, this was fantastic. Thank you so much. I really appreciate This is great information.
Haley (24:25)
I'm thrilled that you asked me back and love that we keep in touch and honored and happy. Thank you.
Nick Berry (24:32)
Yeah,
Nick Berry is an accomplished entrepreneur and CEO, whose track record includes founding and leading numerous companies since 2002.
He is also a mentor and coach to other entrepreneurs and business owners who are looking for a trusted (and proven) advisor.
Among peers, colleagues, staff, and clients, Nick has been referred to as both 'The Business Guy' as well as 'The Anti-Guru', due to his pragmatic approach and principled leadership.
He shares his insights and lessons learned, along with those of his expert guests,
on his podcast, 'The Business Owner's Journey'.
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