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In this episode of The Business Owner’s Journey, host Nick Berry speaks with Dr. Haley Perlus, a sport and performance psychologist, speaker, author, and entrepreneur, about the psychology of risk-taking in business. Haley shares insights into developing confidence, managing accountability, working with individuals with fixed mindsets, and blazing your own trail as a leader. The conversation is full of actionable mindset strategies for entrepreneurs who want to align their actions with values and take calculated risks for growth.
Risk tolerance is crucial for business owners navigating the unknown. Dr. Perlus explains how confidence in your strengths allows you to step into risks while maintaining a sense of control. She emphasizes the importance of leaning into discomfort to innovate and stay ahead, sharing personal stories of calculated risks, including creating new opportunities in her field.
Confidence isn’t about perfection but trusting your ability to figure things out, even in failure. Haley advises focusing on small wins to build momentum, applying a technique from sports psychology called self-efficacy. Start with one task, succeed, and use that accomplishment as a foundation to tackle bigger challenges.
Fixed mindsets can limit growth in teams and collaborations. Haley shares strategies to help individuals reframe challenges as opportunities. She discusses her own experiences working with individuals resistant to change and the role of emotional experiences in shifting mindset patterns.
Accountability is a game-changer, but only if you choose the right people. Haley advises avoiding enablers who may confirm fixed false beliefs and instead finding accountability partners who challenge you constructively. True accountability comes with empathy and tough love, helping you reflect on your actions and push toward growth.
While self-compassion is essential, it shouldn’t lead to complacency. Haley shares the mantra: "Give yourself grace, but don’t let yourself off the hook." This mindset ensures entrepreneurs prioritize personal growth while acknowledging their challenges, striking the right balance for resilience.
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The Business Owner's Journey Podcast host: Nick Berry
Production Company: FCG
Haley (00:00)
we can be our greatest allies, but we can also be our own worst enemies. And therefore we need people to hold us accountable, but we often choose the wrong person. We choose the person that's going to enable us. And like you said, we're going to choose the person that makes us feel better in the moment, that lets us off the hook. When a real accountability partner is someone that cares about you, that has empathy, that listens to you.
But when you say, want to do this, but I can't, they look at you and they say, the truth is you can. And they hold that mirror up.
Nick Berry (00:34)
The Business Owner's Journey. I'm Nick Berry and I've got real business owners telling their real stories, sharing their real lessons and strategies so you don't have to figure it all out on your
Nick Berry (00:45)
There is a segment of this show where Haley talks about accountability partners versus enablers. And it's probably my favorite thing that anyone that I've interviewed has said so far. This is the second time that Haley Perlus has been on the Business Owners Journey podcast. The first ones we did about mental toughness was a killer and it's an audience favorite. So I had to her back and she's awesome. She did it again. Haley Perlus is a sport and performance psychologist, speaker, author, entrepreneur.
and works with some of the world's biggest athletes, brands, leaders to help them get their minds right and reach their potential. So we split this into two parts. This first part, we talked about being risk tolerant, what it takes to be confident at working with people who have a fixed mindset and how to find people who will actually hold you accountable. In the second part, we cover resilience, self-belief, balancing ambition and contentment, using the flow state.
how she uses her now goals and her next goals, creating a critical thinking mind, and the role of adaptability and preparation in navigating challenges. So enjoy this two-part episode with Dr. Haley Perlus.
Nick Berry (01:48)
So I'm really interested in hearing your story you said nearly getting kicked out of a PhD program and then really quickly said, not because of my grades.
Haley (01:57)
I need my parents to know that I was not because of my grades. Straight A, straight A student. Yeah, people who know me would know that's flat out lie too, but I'm that good girl. Or maybe I'm just the girl that never got caught, but.
Nick Berry (01:58)
Yeah, it was because of your daredevilish behavior. Yeah.
Yeah.
There you go. That's it right there. Like you knew you took the right risk. So tell me about that. How do we do that?
Haley (02:22)
You know that and I I mean you just brought that home you took the right risk and I think that's a really valuable lesson that I am still learning but yes, I almost got kicked out of my PhD program and it was halfway through so it's a four-year degree and It actually because of this took me four and a half years, but that's okay It's a it was a four four-year degree and at the completion of year number two My advisor brought me into her office first time I had ever heard
of what she was about to tell me, but she told me that I should consider looking elsewhere because my focus, my behaviors weren't in alignment with the program. And in other words, she was basically telling me that I wasn't doing enough research. So to this day, I like to apply the research. I like to learn and study, and then I like to answer the question, how?
how to make this applicable in our lives. I'm much more of a teacher and practical coach, if you will. But for my advisor, she wants to get published and the school needs to be published in the program. And part of my job as a grad student was to help them and help myself, but help them with that. So in that moment, I was...
so scared, I was so angry because it had not been brought to my attention. I wasn't hiding anything. I was just going through and signing up for certain courses and asking to do this practical work. And no one said a word to me until this moment. I was angry, was frustrated, I was scared. I didn't know what to do. I really thought that my entire, last eight years were for nothing because you just, the emotional reaction immediately is not a good one.
And then I sat down with my coach who is my father and he and I looked at this from an angle of, you I don't, I wasn't going to spend the next two years just doing research. just, if it's not coming honest, if I'm not coming by it honest, does that make sense? If I'm not doing it from like my heart, I'm not going to do a good job. You're not going to want me there. So we had to figure out how to, how to collaborate. So, and I had to really good valuable lesson that I've now learned in business is I had to listen.
I had to ask her questions. had to understand what she's, you know, what is it that she truly wants? And then once I understood her position, I already knew my position. And then I had to kind of let you say like, what am I willing to risk? Because I wasn't willing to give her everything, but I certainly was willing to risk some discomfort, risk some time away from teaching and practical work to do some research. So I had to figure out a way to collaborate.
I also really had to understand what is it from her list of priorities that's most important. And so I actually did what she wanted from, like her priority list. I gave her the one, the one thing she truly wanted. And then from there I got to do everything else I wanted. So I just had to, I just had to listen and be willing to give first, which I think not something we all want to do, think about doing, but I had to give her first what she wanted.
Nick Berry (05:32)
Mhm.
Haley (05:32)
And then she kind of backed off and let me do my thing. And I graduated.
Nick Berry (05:35)
Was it, and you graduated. So was it the one thing, was that more of the outcome? I'm kind of sorting this into like there's the what and then there's the how.
Haley (05:46)
Yeah, she needed, she was going through, it wasn't just her professional life. She was also starting a family of her own. And so she needed some, she needed her, people that she was advising to step up and, do some of the, the work that she may want to do, but just wasn't, you know, now she's got her life work life balance. So I needed to step up to her plate. And then once I crossed off some of the lists, she let me teach her, she let me teach more. So I, you know, I provided the research that she needed to get done for herself and to help her.
kind of figure out her own work-life balance starting a family. And then once I was able to give her that, and it wasn't like, I'll give you this if you give me this. I just gave her that. And then she softened and then allowed me, she's like, okay, you're helping me. I know you wanna teach, why don't you teach this class? Why don't you teach that class? Why don't you take this practical course? It was an interesting give before I take, but that was a risk I needed to make.
Nick Berry (06:41)
Yeah, what would have been, so if that doesn't work out the way that you just described, what are the consequences?
Haley (06:48)
She was gonna ask me to leave. Or I was gonna neglect. Or I was gonna neglect everything that I cared most about and then just do what they were asking me to do. And then I, you know, for me personally, I know I lose passion, I lose heart, I probably wouldn't put for maximum effort. I wouldn't be a very happy, happy student every day. So it made me really think about, you know, you and I talked about this before and I always.
Nick Berry (06:51)
And if you say no.
I will.
Haley (07:16)
I like music, I like lyrics, you know, and one thing is the song, My Way, Frank Sinatra, you know, you have to learn what you're going to learn and then you got to do it your way, you know, from this song, My Way. And one of the ways in addition that I consider it to be more of like a trailblazing was that I knew I wanted to start speaking, public speaking. And I was still in this, in my PhD program and
everyone within the program, you go to where the conferences are, the sports psychology conferences, because that was what my degree was in, sports psychology. So everyone's going to these sports psychology conferences and spending the little money that they have and asking to speak. But it dawned on me that I wasn't really enjoying this so much. I was learning a lot, but I wasn't really enjoying it from an entrepreneurial
you know, achieving my dreams perspective, because I was just talking to my competitors. I was talking to other sports psychologists. I wasn't really speaking to people who would hire me because they do exactly what I do. So I then took a risk and I picked up the phone and I called fitness conferences where I would be the only sports psychologist amongst the personal trainers and nutrition and group fitness instructors.
And I looked at schools where they did not have sports psychology. And I picked up the phone and I asked if they would want a sports psychology course. And then I became, well, I created a sports psychology program for the University of Colorado in Colorado Springs. And I did that for nine years. And I introduced not just the undergrad, but then also a graduate program in sports psychology. So I looked to see what everyone was doing, speaking and teaching. And then I figured out how to do it.
and think outside the box a little bit. And, you know, I think of that as a little bit of trailblazing, not always going where everyone's going, you know, taking a little bit of a twist to it and end a risk.
Nick Berry (09:24)
Yeah, well, so you know how I feel about agency. That's what I hear right there. I mean, there are a couple of things, but it's all leadership and your mindset and the willingness to like look at something a different way, but understand the stakeholders and what they want, their view of things and figuring out like, okay, well, how can I...
play to all hands and still like get what I want to get out of this. What is the opportunity created here?
Haley (09:56)
It's a really good point. So for example, the bringing sports psychology to university, when I approached it, I did my research and I chose the person who I thought would be open-minded and good for me. He was, he was. But it wasn't in the sport and exercise science department. was in the, it's funny, health and nursing department.
Nick Berry (10:10)
think that's brilliant. That's brilliant.
Haley (10:23)
But that's okay. He was open. And then he said to me, you know, could you also teach health behavior change, which is something that I definitely felt I could do. And it is, it is a passion of mine, even though I wanted to focus on sports psychology. again, this give and take to, to look what it is that they want and you give them what they say they want. And then there are, once you do that, They're more willing to listen and, and allow you.
to get your foot in the door.
Nick Berry (10:51)
I can totally see how this happens because there's a component of it that is just let their guard down once that gesture is made and they realize you're not necessarily being adversarial. You're demonstrating that you're trying to solve something for both of us and keep my interest in mind. That changes people like 180 degrees a lot of times.
Haley (11:11)
Yeah, and I didn't know that at first and that's one thing that my father helped me learn and when I went through that PhD program, being asked to leave, it was because I wasn't doing what we just talked about. So I learned that valuable lesson
Nick Berry (11:25)
And that's one that you probably apply every day in some way now without thinking about it.
Haley (11:30)
Now that I'm thinking about it.
Nick Berry (11:32)
Yeah. I think there's a feeling that for me,
If I get like close-minded or kind of off with the principles that I want to operate by, it like changes the way that I feel physically. So, you know, sometimes I can be having a conversation with Kelly and be like, I just need a minute to figure out what switch did I flip unintentionally here. And let me go back and like turn it back on because I'm not processing things the way that I want to process them.
Haley (12:02)
absolutely. And then you need that moment. You take a little bit of a reset, which is a fabulous tool you may want to talk about with me right now, but just take a little bit of a reset. You bring back the lessons that you know you have and the tools that you know you have, and then you lead with them. You lead with those tools. You lead with your best qualities instead of the emotional reaction to
what you just experienced. So yeah, you stop, you take a moment to vent, take a moment to reflect, and then you reset, and then you have your framework that you know works. What is it that they want? What is it that I'm not hearing? And agency, I take personal responsibility in those types of conversations that I'm having with others.
Nick Berry (12:30)
Mm-hmm.
As far as the being innovative and kind of taking risks and the mindset that you need to have to do that, do you think that that's something that most entrepreneurs or business owners are probably lean toward that way anyway? Like it's more intuitive or is it something that they've learned or are still fighting? I mean, I think I know how I am.
I think I know how most of probably risk tolerant to a dangerous degree. like in my circle of people, I don't need to be what we use to gauge our collective tolerance for risk.
Haley (13:15)
How are you?
Hehehehehe
Nick Berry (13:34)
But it also lets me think really freely with coming up with ways to solve problems. So I might have lot of really way too risky options that come out of the ideation. But I was able to think further outside the box because not usually as hamstrung by risk.
Haley (13:54)
I do believe that we are more, We engage in taking more risk. However, I believe that one of the reasons we allow ourselves to take risks is because we also lead with something we're confident in. You know, you know, so you're, I'm, for me personally, I'm more open to take a risk if there's something I believe in that I can bring to the table, something that I can trust.
And if then, then I'm more focused on bringing that quality, that, that strength that I have, if I can focus on bringing that strength, even though I know it's a risky move, if I feel that I can, at least I've got something to believe in, I can go after that success and take that risk. And I think people who are in business for themselves,
whether they know it or not, you when they evaluate their risk or where they jump right into the deep end or they dip their toe, whatever it is, they're still leading with some type of quality strength that they know that they've gotten that they can trust.
Nick Berry (14:54)
Yeah, that makes total sense. you have some sense of control or influence over how it's going to go.
I can totally see it because I'm really comfortable with the unknown and problem solving. Like I'm probably going to be able to figure it out. It's not if, it's when. So if I go rogue, go a little too far and with a bad idea to get a little too risky, I'm comfortable that I'm going to be able to figure out a way to correct things.
Haley (15:26)
And the greatest thing about failing is We know we don't want to fail, but the more you fail, the more you know that you can overcome failure.
Nick Berry (15:33)
Yeah.
Haley (15:33)
So you're kind of willing to take a risk because, okay, if the worst thing happens, I know I'm gonna be okay. Like you just said, I'm gonna figure it out. And I'm not saying that's just for failure, that's with anything, but you have this idea that you're gonna figure it out. And the more you've been able to figure it out, the more you know you can figure it out.
Nick Berry (15:50)
Yeah. So I used to tell my parents would love to hear this, but I used to comment around my parents. Like the reason that I'm so good at getting out of trouble is because I was so good at getting in trouble. So I got in that situation so many times, like I know how to, I can get out of it. I can figure it out. And that was, there was some truth to that.
Haley (15:53)
Hahaha
Get it? it?
and probably not getting into trouble but that's one of the reasons why in my line of work and in my industry we talk about doing things consistently because every time you do something the more and more you do it the more you learn that you can do it or you know bounce back or or recover I was just asked a question and I just I just created a little mental toughness moment I'm gonna post it this
Well, who knows when you're airing this, but at the time of this recording, I'm posting it this week and it's about increasing productivity. And, know, when we're getting distracted or you've been in the office all day and you're just finding it's just one of those days where you find it difficult. And my tool, my recommendation is to just choose one task, whether it's for me, I like to do the easy task, five minute task, 10 minute task, whatever it might be, but it's something that I can just focus in for those few minutes.
And then here's the thing where most people would say, okay, I get where you're going, Haley. You just want me to have an accomplishment. And then that boosts my confidence. And then, okay, one task completed, cross it off the list, do another one. I actually look at it a differently. I want to acknowledge the fact that I just was able to focus in, even though five minutes earlier I said I was distracted. So I just proved to myself that I can focus and tune out the distraction.
So I just proved to myself that I can do this, therefore I can do it again. It's not about crossing off the list. It's about me being able to focus when I choose focus over distraction. You know that you can figure it out. So no matter what you're doing, you're going in there knowing because consistently you know how to figure it out. Consistently, I know how to choose focus. And that's why we like to do things repetitively, consistently, frequently so that we know
Nick Berry (17:55)
Mm-hmm.
Haley (18:05)
When we need to, we can pull that out. There's confidence is huge. The ability to trust in yourself is huge. And it's not about being perfect.
Nick Berry (18:16)
So what do you do when you don't have the reps?
Haley (18:20)
All you need is one. in, and then that's what you build on. So if you don't have the reps and you create one. So there's a, there's a theory in sport performance psychology called self-efficacy theory. And one of the ways to develop self-efficacy is having a past accomplishment and building on that. And if you don't have a past accomplishment, create one right now so that you have a past accomplishment. So, you know, so.
For me, again, if we continue with the lines of productivity, if I haven't been productive all day or all week, well, I'm going to do one thing for five minutes and I'm going to choose for just five minutes to focus in instead of getting lost in my distractions. I just had a past accomplishment. Now that past accomplishment is quite current. It just happened, but I know I can do it. So then let's do it again and then let's do it again. I mean, it all starts somewhere. We all have that.
first, that first accomplishment. But it's the, and then it's the consistency. And too often we get focused on what the task was that we accomplished instead of internalizing it, taking agency for it and saying, I accomplished that task because I chose to zone in and turn off everything else and just zone in. And then you build on that type of success. Cause that's the success that
you own that you're responsible for.
Nick Berry (19:45)
I think I see people tend to like look for reasons to disqualify the things that they could just as easily used as like evidence of their self-efficacy or, you know, having something on their resume. it, for me, that's all it took.
is just realizing like, if I put as much effort, at least as much, if not more effort into figuring out how to let this serve me instead of why it won't, then like things get easy really fast. How do we help someone to reframe things in that way? Or is that even viable? Am I, is what I'm saying like, I'm practicing without a license here.
Haley (20:25)
Well, you're asking good questions. Skills are transferable. so if you were able, and that's another way, like when you said, what if we don't have a past accomplishment? So the answer that I gave is we can create one right now. But then they're also, the other one is I'd argue against that. I mean, unless you were just born, I would argue you've done something and...
Nick Berry (20:42)
You got done.
Haley (20:46)
Let's transfer those skills. And you know what I do with athletes in sport is huge. And athletes go through a tremendous amount of anxiety and stress when they transfer out of sport into whatever else they're going to do in their life, whether they're forced out or whether they choose to retire on their own, that they go into the world and the world of business, for example. And some, not all obviously, but some are very frightened. Some are
paralyzed. You know, I'm an athlete, how am I going to go into business? And one of the things that we do, one of the tools is I ask them, you know, what did you learn from sports? Or what do you love most about sports? Or what are you best about? What were your best qualities in sport? Very seldom is it the smell of the ball, you know, how the bat felt in their hands. It's discipline, it's persistence, it's competition, it's camaraderie, it's being coachable.
How do we take those strengths? How do we take those loves and transition them? So if you don't feel confident in this, you know, in leading this team meeting that you're about to lead, well, you are the captain of your soccer team. You know, you have leadership skills, you have leadership experience, just a different environment, but leadership experience is leadership experience. So we're going to transfer that in. Past accomplishment.
And we're not making things up. I'm not making things up. I'm finding something to believe in.
Nick Berry (22:16)
Right. Yeah. I mean, I think it's, when you start to look at things rather than saying this won't work because, we can't, or shouldn't, or like, how could it work? Like, what's the best way that we could repurpose this for it to serve us? And, you know, sometimes I feel, I wonder if I'm like really stretching it for myself. But I mean, habitually I've just been trying to
figure out how to take situations and take what I can from it. Let it be the best that I'm gonna get from it and not more and move on.
Haley (22:53)
Yeah, what you're describing there in my opinion is you're learning it or you already have it or you're practicing it to make it more of a core trait for you would be open-mindedness. So we set goals and I'm a big believer. I have problems with a lot of the goals we set, but in generally speaking, I do believe in them.
the value of goals. And one of the reasons is that, you when you have goals, you have direction. And when you have direction, you're more inclined to take action. But along the way, things happen. We don't know what we don't know. And new opportunities come. And what we thought was going to be possible isn't possible. So you have to be a little bit malleable, flexible, open minded to say, okay, I thought that was I thought that was it. And maybe it's not it. And or look, that's something
unique and different. I never even knew that existed. So now I'm going to incorporate that. I I thought I always wanted to be sport psychology until I became an adult myself. And then with all of the challenges and turmoils and all these obstacles, I realized that sport is not just for sport, which then gave me, wait a second. I could actually do this in sport and business and wellness. And
You know, set the goals within the open not to just discovering new things but also be open to it may not always go according to plan and that's not just okay. Maybe that's actually going to be amazing. There's a there's a story I once heard a long time ago, but I sometimes use it in my in my public speaking. There's a story of a shoe salesman and and the shoe salesman was tasked
with going to two shoe salesmen were tasked with going to a third world country to go and sell shoes. And the first salesman, salesperson, goes over, lands, looks around and no one's wearing shoes. And so he calls the company and says, turn around, come back and get me. No one, no one wears shoes. And then the second salesperson lands, looks around and
also sees that no one's wearing shoes. And he too calls the company and says, double the order. No one here is wearing shoes yet.
Nick Berry (25:12)
Yeah, I think that's I've heard that before and that's like a great illustration, right? It's just in the way that you're choosing to look at things. Well, I say choosing. Is it as simple as a choice?
Haley (25:22)
Some people say we don't make choices at all. Some people would say we do. Do I think it's as simple.
Well, listen, there are two ways to look at it. Those were two ways to look at it. And I believe we make a choice.
Nick Berry (25:32)
Yeah. So I think maybe what I'm getting at is like, as far as that being kind of a trait, like one of those people is probably tends to look at things just in general more in that way. The other tends to see like the opportunity. And I think I'm tend to be kind of hard on people who I feel like are being
like fixed about things and you know, like very absolute. part of my responsibility is to
bring out the best in each other and accomplish whatever our goals are. So, you know, I've found myself kind of getting to a place in conversation where I'm like, you're making some of what of a choice here. I don't know if there's a hurdle in there that it requires more than you just saying, I want to think about this differently. Like I'm not qualified to get into that part of it with them, but I also want to be able to, I don't want to tell them like you just make a better choice and like.
leave them there kind of stuck in this like fixed mentality.
Haley (26:27)
Yeah, a fixed mentality is hard. So we definitely want growth mindset, you know, the ability to explore in our mind. But it's also, I'm actually diving more for myself. Yes, I've learned about it, but I even want to dive more into the unconscious mind myself and learning that there is an emotional connection there. so, and that's almost where the real learning happens. So, you know, just telling someone to change their mind or telling someone that they made the wrong choice.
But having, I don't know if that really works, having creating an experience where they get to emotionally feel through that actually triggers the unconscious mind where they can make those adjustments. They don't even realize they're doing it, but they make those adjustments. You know, at the beginning you said, it a choice? Are we just, some people just born optimistically to be an optimist or a pessimist? I kind of believe in both, nurture and nature.
but then you have to do things again, using that word agency. You have to do things for yourself in my career, my consulting practice. People don't call me because everything's great and that they're happy and like, they call me because they're struggling. So it is, it is my, in that moment, you know, they're not going to be a happy camper. And I spend a lot of my days helping people overcome that. So then when I'm home, my
family, my friends, I want to surround myself with people that have that glass half full, that have that growth mindset so that it can, so that I can almost, you know, maintain it for myself and learn. Because if I'm spending all of my days with people who may have a fixed mindset and I'm trying to help them out of that, you know, I need a little bit of some nourishment for myself. And that's a choice that I believe I make.
I choose who to surround myself with.
Nick Berry (28:22)
Yeah, you're aware of what you need and aware of how you get it. And you're aware of what places demand on it. That's definitely a choice. think, yeah, I'm probably oversimplify it when I talking about it being is a choice that they make because maybe it's more like in fitness, right? So I want to be in better shape. And I can, guess choose.
But really like it's not an instantaneous thing. What I'm gonna have to do is make a series of choices over a period of time that are all gonna have to favor this thing. There's gonna have to be some intentionality about it. So I can decide that I want to do more to take care of myself, but like it ends there if I don't have any idea what those steps are to do that.
Haley (29:12)
Yeah. And then the experience is, that with every new choice, with every new behavior comes loss. Cause you're changing. So with every change comes loss and there's an acceptance of that loss in order, you know, in order for you to, for anybody to eat healthier, they have to obviously lose something unhealthy in their diet and their nutrition. And so it's not just what I want to be doing. It's also what I'm prepared to be losing. And
prioritizing and making that change. And then it's also, again, it's that emotional experience too. And it's hard and it's uncomfortable and it's, sometimes there's pain and there's a whole lot that goes into choosing. There's a whole lot that goes into making choices and sticking with them. What you value most in life.
Nick Berry (30:04)
Yeah. When it comes to your mindset, I guess, at least from my perspective, it's like.
The choice that I would be asking of someone would just be more of on the simpler side of the spectrum. It's like, are you open to the possibility of looking at things differently? Do you want to look at things in a way that will give you more options? And if we can get those boxes checked, then it's like, okay, then we'll figure out ways to like start moving in that direction.
Haley (30:36)
Yeah. You know, it's interesting. I love to catch those, those help people with those aha moments. Cause I just know how impactful they are for me. And let's stick to, mentioned failure working with someone in your business who's, you know, just having them not have a fixed mindset about failure. And even though they, even though I, I don't think they always really truly mean it, but I don't know if you've ever heard an athlete or even a business person say failure is not an option.
I actually in those moments and it's funny because it takes that my intention is to help people just take the load off and and and remove some unnecessary negative pressure anxiety But in those moments when someone says that to me totally get it failures not an option Tell me in the past where you failed Like give me give me an experience in your life where you failed where you've lost
you know, sport business, and then they tell you, okay, so failure is an option. And where are you now? You know, what, you know, how did you overcome that? How did you, how are you resilient? So I get that we don't want failure, but let's be really clear, failure is an option. It can happen. And then, and then let that just go. So then the whole focus is, is how to, you know, do, I don't really love to hear, do the best that you can, but the premise is,
Let's just go out there and give, you know, give it everything you've got to me with specific intentions and objectives that I can control. However, like the failure is not an option. Like that is just, I'm in this box. I'm in this box. It's, or something along the lines of I have no time. I have no time for recovery. I had this a couple of weeks ago. I was giving an in-person training, resilience training, six hour day. And,
People are saying, just have no time to recover. Even five minutes, life is just so busy. And then at one point I asked, who's seen, I think it was like the new season of Shrinking. Who's seen the new season of Shrinking or any television show and everyone just raises their hand. yeah, that season's great, that series is great. Okay, so you don't have time for five minutes, but you've watched the entire season of this television show. It's those moments.
So, know, I don't have time for this or this is not an option. And then just in a couple of questions, but very casually not, I'm not attacking anybody, but just very casually open the mind to, good point. And then maybe that opens the mind to other good points and to take on some new information and become more of a growth mindset than a fix.
Nick Berry (33:18)
Yeah, you can see the light bulbs come on and probably see some that don't.
Haley (33:24)
But even if they won't admit it, I don't know, I'd still like to believe that when they leave the room in a moment to let this marinade, you know, and they still may not take it on, they still may justify why they can't, but I don't know, I like to think that things marinate once you leave the room and even the people who didn't quite let in that they were learning, I'd like to think that they do. I think sometimes I do that.
Nick Berry (33:34)
Mm-hmm.
I think for the right people, they do for sure. Even if their initial response is not one that indicates it, if they truly, their intentions really are to improve or learn what you're sharing with them, then I think it does. I think, so this is a Nick theory, but I feel like there's, majority of the exposure that they have outside of that room with you is,
Haley (34:04)
Mm-hmm.
Nick Berry (34:15)
offer is pulling them in the other direction though. Like it's, there is no shortage of people and sources ready to tell you it's okay. it's not your fault. You don't have to do that. Or they shouldn't talk to you that way or give you every reason to sit in your current, in your state.
Haley (34:32)
Yeah.
Nick Berry (34:32)
And that's like what you're up against,
Haley (34:34)
For sure. I think it's a therapeutic term, but it's a concept. I didn't make it up. It's not a Haley theory, but I love the Nick theory. Fixed false belief. sometimes our friends, the people who, we have people who enable us. And people who enable us often confirm our fixed false beliefs.
care about us and want us to succeed, but they'll give us every reason why it's okay to not grow and not change. And there's many reasons for that. That's why you bring up another, I'm bouncing all around here, Nick, I hope it's okay, but you're bringing up concepts that I just think are so important and one is accountability.
We know that accountability is so important, one, because we can be our greatest allies, but we can also be our own worst enemies. And therefore we need people to hold us accountable, but we often choose the wrong person. We choose the person that's going to enable us. And like you said, we're going to choose the person that makes us feel better in the moment, that lets us off the hook. When a real accountability partner is someone that cares about you, that has empathy, that listens to you.
But when you say, want to do this, but I can't, they look at you and they say, the truth is you can. And they hold that mirror up.
And then you're not allowed to get upset with them when they do. Because that's it. You know, you, choose someone that when they say that, you know, like, I don't know, maybe Kelly is a great accountability partner for you, but maybe she is awful because she's more of an enabler. don't know. Vivienne your daughter's name is Vivienne, right?
Nick Berry (36:04)
lolololol
Yeah
Haley (36:20)
hands down, she's probably going to be a fabulous accountability partner because she's more than willing to tell you when you screwed up.
Nick Berry (36:26)
Mm hmm. And even it's my fault when other people screw up. So I get she's making sure that the message lands with me.
Haley (36:30)
You
Yep.
Nick Berry (36:33)
Yeah, so there is a world, mean, businesses are in your face and there are a lot of them who are, you it's packaged as self care, but it's letting you off the hook, like you letting yourself off the hook. Maybe there's a fine line in there. And you, you said this the last time that we spoke and it stuck with me. It's like you give yourself grace, but don't let yourself off the hook.
And I think that's the part that gets left out. I think everybody gets stuck on grace. The message that you find everywhere is give yourself grace, period.
Haley (37:03)
Right. But then as you said, where's the agency in that? Where's the growth mindset? Where is the, wait a second, I'm more capable. I can. I'm just in the, I'm right now putting together some content on self-belief. And one thing that I'm working with is that we earn our self-belief.
Nick Berry (37:06)
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Nick Berry is an accomplished entrepreneur and CEO, whose track record includes founding and leading numerous companies since 2002.
He is also a mentor and coach to other entrepreneurs and business owners who are looking for a trusted (and proven) advisor.
Among peers, colleagues, staff, and clients, Nick has been referred to as both 'The Business Guy' as well as 'The Anti-Guru', due to his pragmatic approach and principled leadership.
He shares his insights and lessons learned, along with those of his expert guests,
on his podcast, 'The Business Owner's Journey'.
