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Dr. Haley Perlus, a renowned Sport & Performance Psychologist and entrepreneur. joins Nick Berry in this episode of "The Business Owner’s Journey,", to discuss mental toughness, mindset, and peak performance. Dr. Perlus shares invaluable insights on managing anxiety, harnessing strengths, and drawing parallels between athletes and business leaders. Listen in to learn how you can apply these strategies to achieve success in your own business journey.
Dr. Haley Perlus explains the P.R.I.D.E acronym, which stands for Personal Responsibility In Delivering Excellence. This principle emphasizes taking ownership of your actions and striving for excellence in all aspects of life, whether in sports or business. By adopting this mindset, individuals can improve their performance and overcome challenges more effectively.
Dr. Perlus highlights the importance of identifying and leveraging your top three strengths to manage anxiety and enhance performance. She explains how focusing on these strengths can help individuals regain control and confidence in high-pressure situations. She fives personal examples of how she uses this exercise with her own strengths.
The sensation of butterflies in your stomach can signify both anxiety and excitement. Dr. Perlus explains that it's the mental interpretation of this physical sensation that determines whether it becomes a hindrance or a motivator. By visualizing these butterflies in a structured formation, like an inverted V, individuals can transform anxiety into controlled energy that enhances performance.
Dr. Perlus draws on examples from top athletes to illustrate mental toughness. She discusses how Rory McIlroy handles the pressure after a rough tournament finish by focusing on what he did right and what he can improve. Scottie Scheffler’s ability to reset and perform at the PGA Championship after an arrest demonstrates the discipline of focusing on the present moment. Roger Federer’s approach of concentrating on 'just a point' in tennis emphasizes the importance of focusing on the current task without dwelling on past mistakes.
Dr. Perlus draws comparisons between professional athletes and business leaders, noting that while athletes spend a significant amount of time training compared to competing, business leaders are often performing and competing constantly. This means that business leaders need to develop resilience and mental toughness while continuously performing under pressure.
Dr. Perlus advises that while it's important to give yourself grace and acknowledge difficult emotions, it's equally crucial not to let yourself off the hook. She stresses the importance of maintaining personal accountability and agency, and using setbacks as learning experiences rather than excuses for inaction.
For a business owner looking to grow and excel as an entrepreneurial leader, Nick Berry brings you the tools and insights you need, free from fluff and filled with actionable advice. Join Nick and Dr. Haley Perlus in this enlightening episode to sharpen your mental game and boost your performance.
If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to the podcast on your favorite platform and leave a review. Your feedback helps us bring you more valuable content.
Haley (00:03)
My story starts when I was 12 years old. I was an alpine ski racer growing up and a really good one when I was 12. I peaked and I was asked, I was asked to go. So when I was 12 years old, I was asked to go and compete in what would be considered the world championships for my age group.
Nick (00:14)
I peaked as a little leaguer!
Haley (00:25)
And long story short, my coach comes up to me just before I'm about to go and compete, and he pulls out a $100 bill, and he places it in front of my face, and he tells me that he's bet on me to win this world championship. And then he tells me that he lost betting on a different athlete the week before, a race that I was not in, and that he's not prepared to lose today.
And then he points in the direction of the starting gate because it's my turn to go and he smiles and he tells me to go have fun.
And so, you know, now I can tell you what was going on mentally from a mental toughness perspective, but obviously at 12 years old, I didn't. But today I can tell you that in that moment, I was at an emotional and a mental fork in the road. And this is something that you and I and everyone, you know, viewing this experiences each and every day. So my coach puts pressure on me. So on one hand, I could feel anger, frustration, worry, fear. How could he do that?
What if he's wrong? What if I make a mistake? On the other hand, I could think and then feel passionate, confident, hopeful, excited. If my coach believes in me so much that he has high expectations, doesn't that mean I'm doing something right?
And that is something that you and I are in each and every day. But at back then at 12 years old, I didn't really, you know, I can't tell you that I stood there and acknowledged this mental and emotional fork in the road and processed it. But I so clearly remember thinking, wow, if he's putting that much pressure on me, he must really believe in me. And if he really believes in me, why shouldn't I believe in myself? And then what happens? Then you start thinking about I've won every race so far this season. I know this course.
strong, I slept well, and all the reasons why I can instead of all the reasons why I can't. So I went down that race course and I did win, which was great. My coach congratulated me, kept all the money for himself. But he then said to me something that completely created my career. He said, it's amazing what your performance can be when you get your head straight.
And then he brought a sports psychologist to come and speak to my team. And I just, you know, I just was so interested in this. I went home at 12 and I told my parents that I wanted to be a sports psychologist when I grew up. And I stayed the course.
Nick (02:52)
That's awesome. So, and I'm imagining like your coach knew what he was doing, right?
Haley (02:59)
Well, I'm not going to tell every coach to start betting on their athletes, and I'm not going to tell every leader to start betting on their employees, in that extreme. But I know that my coach, to this day, he is one of my top three coaches that I've ever had. Because I believe he knew what made me tick.
And I do thrive under pressure. I'm sure we'll get into some of these things, but sometimes I consider myself to be a procrastinator. Because if someone asks me for a keynote 30 days in advance, the answer is going to be no. Because I just don't have the proper focus, the energy, the motivation. But the last week leading up to it, I start feeling that pressure. And for me, initially, it's a good motivator.
I don't want to live there forever because that's bad, but it's a good igniter and I think my coach knew that about me. And so he took that risk.
Nick (03:55)
Yeah, yeah, that's so when you started the story, I know having heard it, I can picture this like alternate universe where like in parallel, it goes a different direction. And it's more of like the Molly Bloom story. Like this 12 year old sees a hundred bucks and is like, man, I'm gonna get skiing. There's something else out there for me.
Haley (04:17)
yeah where's the money? let me let me create ways you know well we know what happened with the Molly Bloom story right? me too. well kind of I kind of stayed my course
Nick (04:25)
Yeah, yeah, I'm glad you stayed your course.
Yeah, what do you mean?
Haley (04:32)
I mean, I, well, I mean, I did, I did get my PhD in sports psychology and I do still work with athletes. But I always thought that I would only work with athletes, marry a quarterback, you know, and do and have that life. But I didn't just work with athletes. I think one of the reasons, even though I was goal oriented, I also had an open mind and other opportunities came my way. So now I get to work in the sport industry, the health and fitness industry.
as you and I know, and then also in the corporate world. I now travel and give, I was just working with some in the finance industry, working with some traders on mental toughness as well. So I stayed the course, but then also so much more, which is wonderful.
Nick (05:21)
So I think that's great. Like tie those groups together that you just mentioned. You mentioned the athletes, you mentioned fitness, and then you mentioned like in the corporate world. Yeah. What is the, this cross section that the problems set that they all have that you work with on? What are the commonalities?
Haley (05:29)
corporate.
Sure. So in my business, I start from the neck up, obviously. So now even though I know about nutrition and fitness, my area of expertise is the mind. And so every thought that we have, every thought that we have,
influences an emotion. And if, you know, if we go back to my story, I was either when my coach bet on me, because of the story I told myself, I was either going to feel anxious, or I was going to feel excited. And so the thoughts impact our emotions, our emotions then influence our body and our performance.
So I work with anyone in any industry, sport, fitness, wellness, business, to get, just like my coach told me, to get my head straight, to get all of our heads straight so that we can then get our minds right, which then helps our emotions facilitate peak performance.
Nick (06:37)
So I read, you can debunk this for me. I think I read somewhere one time that like physiologically, the butterflies in your stomach, anxiety or excitement, it's the same exact thing. But what you tell yourself up here is more what determines how you feel about it.
Haley (06:57)
Yeah, so in sport, a common tool with the butterflies in your stomach is the visualization of having butterflies in our stomach is all these butterflies just swarming around out of control. We no longer have control. That's anxiety, no longer feeling like you have control. You no longer have the confidence and perceived control.
If we move and use a visualizing, a visualization or an imagery technique where we take back control of those butterflies and athletes use this all the time, they turn, they place those butterflies in their mind's eye in an inverted V, like birds flying above us. Well, birds fly above us in an inverted V because it's fast and it's efficient. So if we can in our mind's eye imagery, put our butterflies in an inverted V, now they're there to help us perform.
we just now regained perceived confidence and perceived control and we from a physiological standpoint it all rather typically stays the same it's energy but emotionally mentally it moves away from anxiety and more into like arousal which is just energy ready to be exerted and help us instead of hurt us
Nick (08:10)
Yeah, okay. So for like the business owners, can you give me some ideas, just some examples, not name names or anything like that, but like what are the just the very relatable, common, typical problems that people are faced and that you can take that imagery and apply it and it helps them, you can basically go out the next day maybe even.
feel like you have more of a sense of control.
Haley (08:43)
Absolutely. So one of the ways is, you know, even though I just said athletes do this, we can all do this because we all experience butterflies in the stomach. But if we give it if we bring it down to a very like concrete, tangible example, maybe you're having an upcoming meeting with a new investor or a new person that you want to make a deal with, or you're just presenting to your board or you just have a presentation that you're giving where you're feeling anxiety, meaning I've got all that energy, but it's but it's coupled with doubt.
because anxiety means it's coupled with some type of doubt. Arousal and energy can still be brought with confidence. And in that moment, what I do with anybody I'm working with, again, in any industry,
I always like to focus on some fundamental strengths that we all have. And it's really good if you just nail it down to three things. What are my fundamental strengths? So if I'm just gonna use myself, if I, my fundamental strengths are I'm bright. So it's like what the sun gives the earth is I know I can bring that energy to a group and to my surroundings, my environment. I'm bright. I'm also full heart. Everything I do comes from heart. And when people work with me, they know it's,
The most common thing that people say about me is that I care. So I come with full heart. And then the third strength that I have fundamentally is I'm a strength finder. I'm gonna look and I'm gonna listen and I'm gonna find your strengths and help you focus on your strengths. So if I ever get really anxious, it's a new group that I'm speaking to or I wanna land this deal or I wanna get this investor or it's just, I'm just anxious. I've lost a little bit of confidence and I'm now, you know, my anxiety, my energy is coupled with
with doubt, I will go back to my top three fundamentals, bright, full heart, strength finder, and I will choose one of those strengths to bring with me.
So all of us, no matter what you're doing, we all have strengths. Now, you know, narrow it down to three, so it's easy to choose from. And as soon as we find ourselves anxious, look at your top three strengths and ask yourself, which one can I bring with me right now to this upcoming stressor, to this upcoming moment of anxiety? And what we'll find is that your anxiety kind of shifts a little bit away from that area and moves more towards an arousal, high energy, and now it's coupled with
confidence and control.
Nick (11:09)
Yeah, that's so, that's incredible. I'd have never, I've never heard that. And yeah, I can just imagine because in those situations, it's just like with anything that where if you don't have a method, sometimes it goes right. And a lot of times it doesn't. And you're like basically left hoping that next time it'll go right because you don't really know how to replicate it going the way that you want to. But
having some sort of method, you know, other than like deep breaths, count to 10, deep breaths, count to 10.
Haley (11:45)
Which can work, I mean yes, if we have a calm body, you know, obviously that affects our mind. But can you imagine if everyone was able to, I was working with a woman a few weeks ago and she's trying to bring this huge project into her company and she has to present to people above her. And she's nervous and she doesn't know that she's gonna get the buy -in. But I asked her what is one of her strengths in presenting and she talked about her humor.
You know, like she can make a room laugh. That is the first thing I want you to focus on when you go into that boardroom or go into that meeting. You bring your best, you draw that attention, and then the energy is reciprocated, and then you can go ahead and deliver that content. So you just, you know, she's walking into that room with a strength. This is what we learned from professional athletes. Athletes don't, in high pressure situations, the ones that do best, they're going out on that field, jumping in the water,
in that mountain armed and ready to show off and I say that in a good way show off their strengths. They want to highlight their strengths and so why aren't we doing the same thing and again from a mental perspective it allows us to feel more confident more in control and then once we find that we were being successful we're functioning then we can the whole situation just appears to be easier in my in my perspective.
Nick (13:13)
Yeah, really. I mean, I can imagine this is, I'm going to be better tomorrow for having this conversation. So how much different is an athlete? I've,
Haley (13:20)
All good.
Nick (13:24)
been really fortunate my entire life. I'm one of the people, I think that it's more rare than common where I've had more good coaches than bad. I've been taught about mental toughness in some way, shape or form for a really long time. So at the very least it's
I get resilience, but I'm sure, you know, there's more to it than that, but that's kind of the lens that I apply to all of it. What's the difference between an athlete in the head game and a business owner?
Haley (13:58)
I don't know that there's a big difference between the head came, but there is one very big difference in the way we can develop it and train it. Athletes train 90, I say that, but don't quote me on the actual number because it's give or take the sport. But athletes train much more than they compete. Athletes are training like 90 % of the time and competing 10 % of the time. Again, that varies from sport to sport.
In the business world, we don't get to train. We're always out there performing. I mean, maybe if you're listening to your podcast and like I said, I just came back from New York giving a 90 minute training session. So there's little bit of training, but 90 % of the time we're out there performing. We're out there competing all the time. So it can matters. It counts in sports. There's a lot more ability to try, you know, and see if it works, see if it doesn't work, you know, and in
mental toughness, there are so many tools and techniques. What I love about psychology of performance is that it's a science, but there is also an art to it. And the science, you know, are all the this type of self -talk works, this type of imagery works, and we know that through, obviously through research, but then there's an art to it. We have to figure out how to make it work for us. And athletes have a lot of time to train and to work it out. In business, we're
We're gonna work it out, but we're working it out while we're performing, while we're competing for business. So that's a very big difference in just the space that we have to figure these things out.
But I do think that the core is the same, which is why I love transition, which is why I can apply it to sport, fitness, even relationships, even though it's not typically what I do. And then business, you know, it's from a, that to me is simple. You know, our mind impacts our emotions, which alter our body, which influences our behavior. That is simple, but just our lives as an athlete versus a business person is different.
Nick (16:04)
Yeah. to me, it's easier to define the mental challenge on the side of sport than it is, than it used to be at least on in business. Now I've talked about it in business so many times, like
I probably can kind of put it in a box, but it's like, you know, in sport, I'm thinking about like the pressure game situation. You know, those are the elements. The in business,
is more like you're dealing with uncertainty. Like the challenges are the uncertainty, the constantly changing landscape, the complexity of it. And that's where you have to call on like the mental toughness, the resilience. Like I use high agency is where I use a lot. Like I think is behind
mental toughness. How do you, if you can put the challengers into a box like that, how do you describe each one for like sport and for business?
Haley (17:19)
I love the word agency too, taking responsibility, knowing that you have choice. And I think today we're kind of shying away from that. It's almost like we don't want agency, but it's the only way that we gain confidence. It's a good word. Responsibility is a good word. I love the word pride, the acronym for pride, personal responsibility and delivering excellence.
It's something that I didn't come up with it, but I use it. And that's it. Well, thank you. But that's agency, you know, like taking responsibility. And, you know, the way I listen to you compare business and sport, I mean, you're definitely right. If you're a baseball player, you know, the field is the field. And, you know, the rules are the rules. There's not a whole lot of change. So I do understand that. In business, I mean, we have to stay...
Nick (17:47)
You're getting credit here.
Haley (18:12)
There is a lot of uncertainty where in sports, in the actual sporting arena, we know there are lanes, we know there are periods that we know that there are refs, like all that. However, there are athletes, even though they know that their sport has certain...
Certain factors they have life outside. I sport things happen all the time and they still need to be able to Walk onto their you know sporting arena Even though all the uncertainty outside happen They still need to be able to walk on into their sporting arena ready to play and I think that's the same with business too in some sense as well You got it. You got to get your got to get your head in the game whether it's sport and business, but you do you do I do buy that
where for some people, and depending on the business, there's more uncertainty where in sport there is, you know what you're walking into.
Nick (19:13)
You know, I think the uncertainty is there. It just takes a different form.
There's always like, everybody has their stuff, right? So we can't just assume that like somebody's game is easier because it's different. Everybody's got their stuff. But the whole.
Haley (19:35)
That's a good quote, Nick. That should be your, that you know, everyone's got their stuff. I like it. Talk about simplifying it. And sometimes, and sometimes the stuff just simply sucks.
Nick (19:41)
Yeah, they do, right?
Yeah. Yep. We've all got our shit that like, and you never know what, what somebody's been through that day or that week or that month or what's on their mind. So like, yeah, that's kind of my self -talk for, making sure that I'm given the benefit of the doubt more as often as possible. Cause you just never know. Right. the whole uncertainty thing that reminds me of,
I'm sure you've any, any Duke, right? It's the thinking in bets. Have you read that? Or do you know about any Duke? it's an awesome book. Any Duke is. And she wrote this book. She is a former professional poker player and she is just, she's sharp, like a professional, like a world champion poker player. Like she's won the world series of poker a few times, I think. but she's intelligent the way that you would expect.
Haley (20:23)
Thinking and bets, okay.
Nick (20:41)
And she just talks about like, you're, you just don't get that many certainties in decision making. And so you're trying to set yourself up to make better decisions as often as possible. And that's, that's what poker is about. And there you're having to make these decisions with less than complete information, 100 % of the time. And she used this comparison. She was like on a chess board, every move is right there. Now it's a lot.
but every possibility is right there in front of you. When you're playing poker, that's not the case because you only know these cards and maybe the few that are visible on the table. So like there are two very different levels of like certainty like within the boundaries. And you know, that's the thing working with business owners and talking to business owners for so long that is...
It's just really hard for people to want to get in the arena and stay in the arena and play when like you don't know nearly as much as you would like to know. You're never going to have all the information. Like you're, you're going to live and die based on doing the best you can with what you got 100 % of the time.
You know, we are just running into people all the time who are like, you ask them a question like, well, I don't know. That's a tough question. I can't answer that because I don't know. If I had all, if all the information was available, I wouldn't have asked you. Like I would know the answer, right? I think that's some of that wiring that you have to have. That's a little bit different.
Haley (22:19)
That's separate.
Yeah, to me that separates the people who are successful and the people who are not successful. The people who are not successful are either waiting for the perfect moment to where they know everything and they can see everything and then they never get anything done, right? It's like the greatest excuse for not doing anything.
We're always thinking about the reasons why we're not ready, all the reasons why we need to hold off instead of just giving yourself some grace. You don't know everything, but don't let yourself off the hook and do nothing. And that's a really big distinction. And go with what you do know and understand that you don't know everything.
But if you're just gonna hang out until the time is right that you feel like, okay, now I know enough. And the only way we learn is by doing too. So you wanna learn some more, start doing and then you'll learn some more. You'll learn what works, you'll learn what doesn't. I mean, it goes back to Edison, right? He didn't learn a thousand ways. He didn't fail a thousand ways. He learned a thousand ways not to invent the light bulb. And Tim Ferriss actually, I'll never forget listening to Tim Ferriss when he wrote his,
four hour work week and then he wrote another one, The Four Hour Chef, and I think the second one was not as nearly as successful as the first or I know he's got more than just two books. But I remember him, someone asked him, like, are you upset at your certain, they called it a failure, are you upset at that? And he's like, no, I made a choice with the information I had at that time. I'm paraphrasing. He's like, I had the knowledge that I had at that time. You know, obviously years later I could go back and maybe I would redo it, but I didn't have
that knowledge so I did what I felt was the best decision in that moment and look at him now I mean so we all have to make decisions and take action and it's the person that's again it's that doubt it's that person that's waiting for the best perfect time they're the ones that are sitting back and watching everyone be successful so
Nick (24:24)
Or they're scared to put themselves out there and for fear of it being a wrong answer or a wrong move.
Haley (24:36)
don't be, you know, part, I hope I'm not being too rude here, don't be stupid and, you know, if you don't, do your due diligence. Learn as much as you can. Watch from others and then see how you can, you know, take that information and then give it a go. Don't just, you know, jump in the deep end without knowing how to swim at all.
But once you have a good, once you start developing skills, the only way to hone in on your skills is to start doing. And it's this idea that it has to be perfect or it's this idea that failure is, this is actually a really important lesson, again, that we can learn from sports. You hear athletes all the time saying that losing isn't an option, right? Losing is not an option. And I even hear business people say losing is not an option. It is an option. It does happen. In order for one person to win,
Nick (25:04)
Mm -hmm.
Haley (25:26)
somebody else and probably many others has to lose. So it is an option. I understand what they're saying. They don't want to let their mind go there. They want to keep their mind on the path of success and armed with confidence. But in my opinion, it's actually even better to acknowledge the fact that I might fail here, acknowledge the fact that I might lose, accept it. And then I don't have to even think about it. Then I can move on to doing the best that I can to get the best result that I possibly can. And to me, that's the better
approach because that fear can be paralyzing and it's an irrational story. Like we all, I just recently saw this thing it was like steps you know like just steps towards success and every step was failure failure failure failure failure success.
Nick (26:15)
Yeah. Yeah. I can, it probably just comes back to each individual kind of knowing what, which way, which internal dialogue or the narrative suits them best for them to be able to perform the best. I would assume that at a professional level, if they're saying that like, you know, they're probably not, hopefully they're beyond being paralyzed by like a limited,
or fixed mindset, right? They're just trying to curate the imagery, the visualization that they're doing in their mind. Like it's not an option because I'm not thinking about that. I'm only gonna think about the way that I'm going to like manifest these actions or whatever.
Haley (27:06)
Yes, however, in my consulting practice when I work with individuals,
It's not about feeling safe all the time. In fact, you want to get comfortable feeling uncomfortable. Now I'm not talking about I'm not a big believer in in like lofty goals. I mean, I am if you're a big dreamer dream big, but I'm not if you come to me, I'm not going to force you to dream. If you're already dreaming, great, no big deal. But I just want you to if this is your current level of ability, let's challenge yourself just above here. So you're not going to feel safe.
Right? You're not going to feel safe. Just a little bit above. But to me, that's where the growth happens. I mean, talk about growth mindset. That's where the growth happens. And then you actually realize that even though you were feeling unsafe, even if you fall, you're OK. You talk about resilience. You know what resilience is? Recovering. And you can only recover if you failed. And that's what resilience is. You fall down. The person who gets back up,
the best way is often the winner in the end. So it's this changing mindset of I wanna be safe. I don't know if that's what I wanna be.
I don't know that that's what I want to be when I go out there. I want to I want to feel a little unsafe I'm not going to challenge myself up here because to me that's stupid but I'm going to challenge myself just here and then I learned that if I fall not falling too hard and I'm going to learn something along the way and Most importantly, I'm gonna be okay. Everyone is gonna be okay
And so I feel sometimes we're not making decisions that fear, it's just because we have this motivation to be safe. And I like to change that story for people.
Nick (28:52)
Yeah, I love that. Is that so I've started in the book. I'm just maybe 25, 30 pages in. But I mean, I mean, yeah. And so so I don't know everything that's in there. How is this all covered in the book?
Haley (29:04)
I'm impressed, that's good.
Not everything. I mean, the whole fear piece about failure happens.
So I do cover, I do cover, there's actually a chapter in it about wanting success more than you fear anything else. And I really pride myself on technique and tactics. That's one thing that I learned in sport and that's one thing that I really hope to bring to business. Technique and tactics, not just this abstract concept that you want success more than you feel failure. For example, it's really how can I move away from the focus, the priority.
of being afraid to fail and making wanting success being the priority. So yeah, that is covered in the book personal podium.
Nick (29:54)
So this is now kind of just being like selfish, ask a couple of questions that I just have. I'm so intrigued by this stuff that's gone on with the PGA. And I know I'd seen something from you a few years ago,
along these lines and I just filed it away. You did a one of your, a little piece of content about how Rory is going to, Rory Michael Rory is going to reset or recover something after what might be perceived as a failure. I don't remember the exact story, but that was, you know what I'm talking about. And I'd filed it away. Well, then when the morning that Scotty Scheffler got arrested, and this probably 7 .30 in the morning, I thought of you and I almost reached out to you. And then I thought,
It's probably like 5 .30 where she's at. So I'm gonna leave her alone this morning. But we, yeah. We, like as human beings tend to fall into this mode of woe is me or being a victim or whining about our obstacles or well, I can't work today or I can't give you my all today because my daughter who's two.
Haley (30:42)
I appreciate that.
Nick (31:07)
woke up during the night and I didn't get my full seven and a half hours last night, Haley. I was awake for two extra hours. So I'm going to be cranky today. and yeah, there you go. So what I, and I'm like, man, this dude, Scotty Scheffler, I'm, I'm going to say I'm 99 .9 % sure that three minutes before he got arrested,
Haley (31:17)
Suck it up, Nick, is what I'm gonna say.
Nick (31:37)
He was thinking something like very innocent, something along the lines of, man, wonder what's going on here. He was not thinking about spending the next few hours in jail about his face being all over like everything everywhere in orange jumpsuits and all that shit. Like his day turned like that. And then what, I don't know, three, four hours later, he's back at the PGA championship, right? In Louisville.
and shoots like a hell of a round, stays in contention. So the dude, before this happened, all eyes were already on him. He's, I mean, arguably the most popular, right. And then, and also has this like just absolutely pure reputation, right? Then he gets arrested. I'm guessing it's the first time he's ever had to run in with the law. And then he comes.
Haley (32:16)
Best in the world.
Nick (32:35)
Like how does he get, how does he go through all that show back up and, and play the way that he played, like, how did he get his head game right? Going through all that. I'm just so intrigued. I want to know like, how was he, what did, what did he get coached on to prepare him to be able to like, right the ship?
Haley (32:59)
I don't know exactly how the coaching that he's had, but I do know whether he's had formal training in mindset and mental toughness or just experience playing as long as he has in his just life experiences. He demonstrated the discipline of 100 % focus on the only thing that's relevant in the moment.
And this is what, you know, it's interesting. You open up a sports psychology book or a psychology performance book and usually it starts with motivation. A lot of these books will start with motivation as being the primary.
performance psychology tool. I believe it's actually concentration. And this is what I believe Scott, this is what I believe Scottie had. He has the discipline to in the moment understand what's relevant and not relevant. And so he went through, yeah, it was however long hours I think he was, you know, I think he was in, in
I don't even know the right word was, you know, arrested for like 45 minutes to an hour or something. I think he was held up before he got released. But as soon as he gets released and he's on his way back to...
to compete. The only thing that's relevant is how much time he now has to warm up. When is he teeing off? Because I know things got delayed and pushed back, but when is he teeing off? And then what can he do with whatever time he has left to warm up? Because it wasn't the normal three, four hours that it usually takes. So what can he do within that hour? And then when he steps onto that first tee, the only thing that matters is that first tee.
And then after, you know, that first drive and then it's about, okay, what iron am I going to pick up and where am I going to hit next? And the only thing that is relevant in that moment is now him in that next shot, in that current shot. So he has the discipline to understand that once that what was relevant a few hours ago when he got arrested is no longer relevant in the moment. Now he still has to, he had to contact his lawyer.
and he still has to go through all of the legal and he'll have to follow through on all of that. So it will become relevant again. But for that round of golf?
not relevant and he has the mental discipline, concentration, it's a skill of concentration and how do we develop it? It's like any muscle. You go to the gym, you wanna strengthen your biceps, you gotta do the reps, you gotta do the sets, you gotta do the proper training. He has, I don't know exactly what training he's done, I know what I do with my athletes, but he's done some type of training to be able to literally.
tune out, press mute on all of the irrelevant stuff, because he's got stuff like you said, and in the moment it's just about that golf swing. And same thing with Rory McIlroy, you know, Rory, the situation that you brought up, what I did a mental toughness moment on,
a few years back was that the media created this whole story and started listing all of his stats and all of these numbers and is he gonna win, is he not gonna win? For him, that can't be relevant at all.
He was talking about how he was so close again, so close again. And so he needed to focus on the fact that he's so close, that he's almost there, period. And just focus on that. And it's one of the disciplines he has. And if I can just jump in, I know you're a golf fan. However, Roger Federer, tennis, you know, great, even though he's now retired, tennis, great, just addressed, I believe it was Dartmouth University.
with the commencement address and he gave some lessons and one of the lessons he talks about and I believe I'm quoting him right when he says it's just a point so he obviously used metaphors for tennis to teach us all and he said it's just a point and what does he mean
In the moment, the point that he's playing is the only thing that matters. Nothing else in the world matters. And as soon as that point has been played, win or lose, success or failure, it no longer matters. It was just a point. And now the only thing that matters is the current point. And it's a concentration skill. And we have to take that with us. Because often we take what just happened, think about all the golfers
out there, golfers, they have one bad shot and they just take it with them for the rest of the game. It's the worst thing that we can do. We have to have the discipline of understanding it's no longer relevant. It doesn't matter anymore. What matters right now? And we can take that into every single moment in business.
Nick (37:42)
Yeah, I mean, so being a baseball player growing up, it was like taking your bat into the field. And sometimes if we really needed to have our eyes open, the coach would be like, here, go stand out there, take your glove, take this bat with you, hang on to it, hold onto it like you're doing up here. And let me hit you a few ground balls and see what you can do with them. Like you see the problem here, right? And so, you know, that all clicks.
And then there's the, okay, but that referee, but this person cut me off, but my daughter woke up this morning. There has to be some self, if there's not a coach present, I mean, even if there is, there has to be some self accountability for saying like, not good enough, Nick. It does not matter. I can get to the end of this.
round of golf or the end of this conversation, the end of this day, and I'm going to, and it's going to have gone a certain way and I'm going to feel a certain way about it. I can either look back and be like, well, it wasn't perfect. However, I like, I stayed with it. I like grant, I persevered. I was resilient. I did whatever I needed to do to do the best that I was able to do or.
If I wanna do the excuse game, I can say, well, it wasn't that good, but I've got an excuse for that. And if that's your thing, like, all right. I think when people, if you look at it like that, it makes it a much easier decision, right? You can start to decide, well, I wanna be this way. I can at least start trying to be intentional about strengthening that muscle that you described.
Haley (39:31)
no matter what just happened in the past, no matter how many hours you lacked sleep, no matter if you just got arrested, no matter. You know, you said so many things, Sarah. I'd love to unpack a few things. The word butt, butt, butt, butt. I want to do this butt. I'd like to do this butt. I mean, we all have some big butts, and we cannot lie, right? So that butt word is letting us off the hook. And as I said before,
We do need to give ourselves grace. Things do happen, but we cannot let ourselves off the hook. And so I like to replace the butt with the truth is. The truth is, is my daughter was up for two hours. The truth is I didn't get my seven and a half hours sleep. The truth is this is what I can bring to the table today.
So now it's again that agency that I let that I really I'm in I'm in complete agreement with you. It's bringing back the agency. I'm still looking at myself to make something happen given the circumstances that I'm in. I'm not saying but he but she but they but you know but this happened the weather happened blah blah blah blah. Not even going there to me that's a waste of energy a waste of mental energy that's only going to you know create emotions that I don't necessarily want to have for
performance.
Yeah, so that's one thing. And then the other, if I could just jump on that, how do we, you know, so the truth is, is that I'm still here to deliver a 45 minute presentation. I'm still here and hosting this podcast. It doesn't really matter what happened. What's relevant now is that you still have to host. You still have to, you know, get your business hat on. No longer are you dad for this moment. Right now you're your business owner. And if you can't figure out, if you're getting lost, how am I going to do this? Because you're emotionally overwhelmed with your
circumstances bring it back to your fundamental strengths.
In sports, professional athletes say it always comes back to the fundamentals. Well, you have fundamental strengths as a business person. Look at your three. Again, for me, it's bright, full heart, strength finder. And I can say it like that because I rehearsed it so quickly and used it. Which one am I going to use in this moment? And basically what you're doing is helping yourself to press mute on everything and getting really your head is going to be right where your feet are. You're going to be in the moment armed with your strengths.
and may not be perfect, it probably won't. You know, give yourself some grace. Do not let yourself off the hook.
Nick (42:04)
Yeah, I really, I've got some work to do, Haley.
Haley (42:07)
Well, we all do. And that's, listen, this is why I love this so much, because I get to learn it every day, right? I get to, as I'm talking to you, as I just ended that, I was like, okay, wait a second, did I give myself grace this morning or am I like, like I, you know, I evaluate my own performance, which is awesome.
Nick (42:23)
Yeah. Man, and there's so much to it, but I really like being able to distill it down like you've done to just, there are just a few things that if you can start to arm yourself with these things, then you can start to like get control or have more of a feel, a sense of control over things and not be on your heels all the time with.
whatever the challenges are in front of you.
Haley (42:54)
and confidence and you need concentration, all the C words, but control and confidence happens with proper concentration. And I think that's, you know, when you talk about...
Nick (43:04)
Yeah, I was.
Haley (43:07)
you know, the pro athletes, Scotty, Rory, I brought in Roger Federer. I mean, I think that's, they create, they bring confidence and control and they do that by being able to concentrate on what's relevant for them in the moment.
Nick (43:24)
Mm hmm. Yeah, there's a method to it to the madness, right? What? yeah. And so I guess on a little bit bigger scale, we talked about like, I mean, my example is Scotty Scheffler getting arrested and how does he recover that day? But so now just a few weeks ago, Roy McElroy had a rough ending to the US Open. It's going to be a few weeks like
Haley (43:29)
Hope so.
Nick (43:51)
What is the self -talk and the practice that he's going through? What does it look like over a bigger, longer time period?
Haley (44:00)
So if I were Rory Malcom Roy's performance coach, which I am not, but I would love to be, although I think he's, well, I'm sure he's got a great team around him, but here, I'll say but in a good sense, but here I am. Couple of things.
Nick (44:08)
You should be, Rory.
Haley (44:19)
I'm okay with being emotional. I really truly am. I think we're all human and a little bit of upset, whether it's sadness, defeat, anger, frustration, those are all normal emotions and we need proper space. And the more you get used to this, the quicker it can happen. So the more you do it, the quicker it can happen. But you need to process those emotions. You need to vent them and often use them to motivate.
And then you've got to quickly move on. And you've got to move on again. It's moving on to what's now. And he even talked. I mean, I know he took off that day and he'll have to deal with those consequences from a media perspective because he didn't give any interviews. He just kind of left. But he then submitted a...
a reporter or he did have a statement afterwards and he, you know, he shared there was some stuff that he's gonna, I think the word was rue, but he's gonna, there's some stuff that he's gotta move through. However, this is what went right and I think any performer needs to focus on after they vent the negative emotions or the unpleasant emotions and they're ready to go another day, they're ready to go again. What did I do right? What can I do better?
Those are the two questions. What did I do right? What can I do better? And every day in training, you want to focus on both. Continue to work on what you're doing right so that it's even more habitual and focus on what you can do better so that that too becomes more of a increase the probability of that. And what's in the past is in the past. Again, it's no longer relevant.
Nick (45:33)
Mm -hmm.
Haley (45:58)
You know, we've already evaluated it. What did I do right? What can I do better? So we've got that information and the past is in the past. Now it's about using that in the current situation. And he's still got it. He knows he still has it. And so as long as you vent those unpleasant emotions and the disappointment, you give yourself time and space to vent that. And then you move forward to, you know, doing better another day.
Nick (45:58)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm, on to the next thing. That's the new one.
Haley (46:29)
But it's not so simple, you know, a lot of people think, okay, roll up your sleeves, get to work.
I really believe, and again, I'm not condoning him for just leaving. I actually, I would have liked for him to be resilient and in the moment. I mean, he's not just playing for himself anymore. It is his own business. So I do believe that he was capable of saying something in the moment, but doesn't matter. After you do that, let yourself vent the emotions in your private space, because it's no one else's business but your own. Vent the hardship, process the disappointment,
And then yeah, let's move on with stronger and better.
Nick (47:07)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
I'm so intrigued by like the mental game of all of it, not just
Haley (47:13)
things need to be simple in my opinion. From a, you know, mental, and you know, it's interesting if I can just dive in, you know, we call it mental toughness, but what I just explained is not about always being tough.
Mental toughness is allowing yourself to be sad, upset, and then recovering from that. That's the mental toughness piece. And then once you do that, then the move forward can be simple. I know the skills I have. I need to continue to hone in on those. And I know what I need to improve upon. I need to continue to do that. Simple.
Nick (47:28)
you
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm. Yeah. And I mean, you know, in fairness, like the examples we're talking about these guys with Rory or Scheffler or Federer in the professional athletes, the microscope they're under, like we keep using kind of the comparison of like my day and my daughter waking up and our conversation. Well, there's no media waiting for me outside my door. Like I get to worry about Nick getting his head right.
I don't have to worry about the optics that come along with it. It would probably be even easier for Rory to go out and get his mind right for the next shot, the next round, the next tournament. If he wasn't having to like deal with that element, but that is part of their job, right? So I.
Haley (48:36)
part of their job. I mean, and in business, we've got the Elon Musk. I mean, we've got people who are just as much in the, you know, in the public eye as a professional athlete, and it's their job. And with, with success comes consequences. And I don't even know that every athlete would look at that as consequences, like negative consequences. But with with any success comes more attention. And that's certainly not just in sport, that's in business, too. And so the more we the more we succeed, the more we'll
Nick (48:41)
Hmm.
Mm -hmm.
you
Haley (49:06)
have to deal with additional factors. But the principles are the principles. You got to press mute, and you got to get to work.
Nick (49:16)
Yep, agreed. I mean, you saw firsthand the grace that I handled Riverside with when we got started, right?
Haley (49:22)
You were great. You were very resilient. Your word.
Nick (49:25)
Right.
As far as you, for your business, where do you go? Who do you follow? Who do you?
Where are you absorbing the lessons that you're learning from?
Haley (49:37)
I'm gonna give you more of a philosophy, because I think it's a good learning lesson. So I'm choosy, I'm selective. The podcasts that I listen to, the people that I learn from, the books that I read.
are actually not broad in the authors and the hosts. I'm actually quite narrow. I've chosen the formulas or I've chosen the people that I trust. I've chosen the things that I believe in and then I dive deep into that. So an easy way to look at this would be nutrition. There are so many different concepts and theories and you know, principles about nutrition. I have did my due diligence. I looked around and I found a nutrition program that I believe in and I don't look other, I don't look outside of that.
I dive deep, I commit, I trust. And for me, I feel like that's better because if I look around at all these different, and I'm gonna learn about this type of nutrition and that type of nutrition and that type of nutrition, I will get so confused, I won't do anything.
So who I learned from is probably, you know, probably can count them on my hand. And but then I dive deep and I truly they don't know who I am. They're truly my mentors instead of looking all around or I'll look at that and I'll look at that and I'll learn from that and I'll learn from that. To me, that doesn't serve me. And I actually like to bring that as a lesson to all of us for just my humble opinion. I just like to be selective and and really dive deep.
and to be completely honest, my greatest influence is my father.
I've just, when I have a question, he's probably the first one that I go to and I've watched him. He's started his own business and I've watched him and looked at his lessons and I'll follow them. I don't really need to look far and wide. Just find the person you trust, find the concept you trust and go for it because a choice and commitment to me is far better. We talked about this earlier. It's far better than not doing anything because you're just unsure because you've taken in so much information
Nick (51:09)
Yeah.
Haley (51:38)
Now you're confused.
Nick (51:40)
Yeah, I love that. I mean, I think there are a lot of ways it could be done as long as you have a way, right? And that way works for you and you're really comfortable and confident with it. Like I'm all for it.
Haley (51:52)
Yeah, commit to it. And then you'll know if it's not working, you'll know it's time to make a change. But give it a shot. Give it a chance.
Nick (51:56)
Yep. Yeah,
you have any tools or apps or gadgets or resources, like any things that like you can't live without? Things that help you do your thing.
Haley (52:06)
Heh.
things that help me do my thing that I can't live without. Pen and paper to be honest. I know that you've got your pen and paper there. I'm not a big, I like to put the technology down really. I'm a...
I'm a note taker because to me when I'm writing things down, that's when it solidifies. I can be typing and multitasking. And the apps, I'm not necessarily consistent with them. So when it comes to devices like that, I'm more of a pen to paper paper because I think that's the way that it actually gets in here from a memory standpoint. So that's what I like to do. And I do have
you know, a few podcasts that I have on like, you know, go to. So like, it's a quick little, if I'm not feeling my best, I could press play on this. It's, you know, or a YouTube video that I have in my library. It's like, you know, five, 10 minutes that just resets me. I think those are really important. I'm a big believer in resets. I don't want to, if I have a bad moment, I don't want it to just stay with me all day long and then I just waste the day away and then I'm like, tomorrow is a new day.
I don't wanna, you know.
Let's try again on Monday. I'm not a big believer in that. So I like to have little resets. I have a theme song that I have right on my phone. I have a specific clip that I can always find on YouTube. And I can rehearse it in my head. So if I can't get on a computer, I know the video. And those are really big resets that in five, 10 minutes, maybe even less, because my theme song, all I need is 10 seconds of the song to help me quickly recover, be resilient, and move on.
me if you think about you know any types of tools my reset tools are pretty significant for me.
Nick (54:00)
I think that's awesome. Okay. How does somebody go about, how do I choose my own set of reset tools?
Haley (54:07)
Well, here's a great way to do that. Going back to those three strengths that you have. So again, you know, bringing it back to the fundamental strengths, mine being bright, full heart, strength finder. Well, when it comes and I'm just going to look to see what can bring me back my brightness and what brings me back my brightness is outside.
So I know for me, get outside, get in nature, even if it's just sticking my head out. And if I can't do that, I look on my phone and my first picture when I open my phone is the sunset. And that was when I was on the boat with my father, brings back a great memory. And if I open my phone up to my, sorry now it's on Do Not Disturb, it's not gonna like me to get in here. But if I open up to my homepage, there's a sunflower of a hike that I was on. So I connect with nature immediately, brings me back my brightness. When it comes to full heart, getting back,
I have a video of my nephew and it just makes me giggle every single time. So I play that easily. I also play my theme song, which I'm going to embarrass myself, but it's from the movie Flashdance. What a feeling. Their words are, find your passion, make it happen, dance through life. 10 seconds of that song brings me back to heart. And when it comes to strength finder, I get down and I start doing pushups or I'll do something physical to make me feel stronger, which then makes me start to think about strengths.
And those are my typical reset tools. For example, that brings me back to my fundamental strengths and away I go.
Nick (55:40)
Yeah, so I mean the resets are just simple cues. The magic is still is really like getting settled on what the strengths are because the cues could come from anywhere, right?
Haley (55:54)
Get your fundamental strengths, pick the three things that characterize you when you're at your best, and then come up with simple tools. I mean, this is simple, and they're all within my control and within my belief, and they take moments, not even a minute, moments, and then it's a great reset to get me back in action.
Nick (56:14)
Yeah, I love that. That's awesome. I'm gonna use that too. Okay. I've got a list.
Haley (56:18)
Great.
Nick (56:21)
Haley, this has been fantastic. I had very high expectations and it's been even better than that.
Haley (56:27)
good. Well, I appreciate your high expectations. I like that. Thank
Nick (56:31)
Yeah,
Haley (56:32)
Well, anytime. I'm here anytime, so we can talk about lots of things.
Nick Berry is an accomplished entrepreneur and CEO, whose track record includes founding and leading numerous companies since 2002.
He is also a mentor and coach to other entrepreneurs and business owners who are looking for a trusted (and proven) advisor.
Among peers, colleagues, staff, and clients, Nick has been referred to as both 'The Business Guy' as well as 'The Anti-Guru', due to his pragmatic approach and principled leadership.
He shares his insights and lessons learned, along with those of his expert guests,
on his podcast, 'The Business Owner's Journey'.
